Author Topic: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help  (Read 3191 times)

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DeadLevel

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Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« on: August 03, 2010, 12:03:16 PM »
A while back I joined an evil campaign being run by a couple of friends. Everyone is min/maxing so it is expected to have characters that rip apart everything they touch.

I am currently playing a Undead (Human) Death Knight with an ECL of 9 (Fighter 4/ Warblade 1/ Soul Eater 2/ +2 Death Knight Template). The template LA was reduced to +3 for house rules. The living requirement for Soul Eater has also been house ruled as not needed.

I chose 4 levels of fighter for extra feats as I had planned on needing them to meet Soul Eater requirements and still get some necessary feats for my double sword. The Warblade level is for the Ironheart Punishing Stance and still meet the BaB for Soul Eater. 2 flaws were allowed and a feat was used to give my human a natural attack (claws). I will eventually get the Spell Stiched Template.

My weapon is a +1 Necrotic Focus double sword (both sides) to make use of my negative levels from Soul Eater and touch attack from my Death Knight Template. I also have +1 Energy Drain (DotF) Full Plate. The Energy Drain effect can be used through a touch attack which I can channel through my weapon because of Necrotic Focus. It leads to many negative levels.

Now I realize I'm not totally min/maxing my character, but I wanted a Soul eating Death Knight. Now that I have achieved that I'm not sure where to go from here. My character wants to raise an undead army and, you guessed it, dominate the world. This has lead me to start thinking I should take levels in Cleric which I know would help in creating this undead army. However, I am unsure if stopping my focus on one ability and instead splitting into something else is a good idea. I know Cleric's are very powerful, and the ability to rebuke undead will help me since they are one of the few beings immune to my Negative Level powers.

Any help and advise on where to go from here would be appreciated.
(PS: We are not allowed to take any leadership feats)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 01:37:02 PM by DeadLevel »

jeroti

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2010, 12:28:02 PM »
How are you meeting the "Any living non-humanoid" requirement for Soul Eater? You're a human and undead so you don't actually qualify for Soul Eater.

DeadLevel

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 12:39:40 PM »
How are you meeting the "Any living non-humanoid" requirement for Soul Eater? You're a human and undead so you don't actually qualify for Soul Eater.
We dubbed the living part non mandatory. I forgot to mention that. My apologies. I'll modify the first post to state this.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 01:36:03 PM by DeadLevel »

McPoyo

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 12:40:20 PM »
How are you meeting the "Any living non-humanoid" requirement for Soul Eater? You're a human and undead so you don't actually qualify for Soul Eater.
Undead isn't a humanoid type. It's undead type. Humanoid is a type, with subtypes such as [Elf], [Human], or [Gnome[.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
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DeadLevel

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 02:44:15 PM »
I forgot to mention a lot of things. Hopefully with this I can get the advise I seek.

Our DM has used the Eberron world many times and is a fan of it so our campaign takes place there.
There is no limitations on books we can use unless otherwise stated by the DM, though he's a good guy so I can't see him saying no to a book.
The campaign plans on going well into the epics since all of us have large agendas and the DM has a large story for us.

I hope this helps cover anything I missed. Thanks for any help and advise!

Gunhaven

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 04:35:59 PM »
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror, 85) 8 allows you to use Animate Dead for 4+Cha Mod/Class Level instead of 4/Caster Level.
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

Widow

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2010, 05:32:02 PM »
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror, 85) 8 allows you to use Animate Dead for 4+Cha Mod/Class Level instead of 4/Caster Level.

That is the first thing that I thought as well, but you are talking about 6 spell caster levels before you get animate dead, and another 2 before you get the bump in the amount you can control.  At ECL of 17, I think that will come a little late to be really useful.  The dreadnecro levels will give some touch based adds ons, but I don't think it is worth it.  Even if you advance Souleater out to level 9 I think (ECL 16), you will get a number of shadows under your control (when you e drain targets) which could be better depending on how many you can get at once.  I am without my books, but even this might not be all that optimal despite getting the Full BAB and an extra drain per attack at level 7 from the soul eater. 

Probably your best bet for armies is to take undead leadership.  That gives you a number of undead minions to control (same as leadership, but everything is undead).  You can still use the Dreadnecro as you cohort.  He can always over produce (IE, make more than he can control so they go free willed) which you can use to explain how you replace lost minions up to your leadership chart max.


If you really want to go with spell casting levels, a dip into Ur-Priest followed by whatever divine PrC you are looking for could work, but it is very feat intensive (at least 2 feats for entry and then the temptation of divine metamagic).  A less optimal, but less feat intensive alternative would be Divine Crusader from Complete divine.  It gets spell progression like the Ur-Priest, but only casts spells off of one domain.  I think eberron has the necromancy domain which would give you animate dead and other goodies.  The only feat requirement for entry is weapon focus with your deities favored weapon (which you might be able to get from your fighter bonus feats if you can change what you had before).  The class is also 3/4 BAB progression and does grant weapon specialization at level 5 I believe.  The spell casting is off of Cha, so that would work well with leadership if you go that route. 

There is also the bone knight in one of the books that everyone talks about.  Not sure if it is as useful i f you are already undead

DeadLevel

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 07:26:39 PM »
We are not allowed any leadership feats. Its the one thing that has been barred from us.

Dread necromancer would be good except the cleric domain Deathbound allows me to control three times my caster level instead of two. I'm not sure if that domain will really help make up for the lost time, but it will help in increasing the total undead I can control.
I'll also be getting the Spell Stitched template and we are using LA buy off.

Once I get Spell Stitched I'll be able to cast the spell Animate Dread Warrior which allows me to raise an sentient undead under my control with class levels. My character doesn't need to be the best creator in undead, he just needs to have them.

snakeman830

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2010, 07:48:02 PM »
We are not allowed any leadership feats. Its the one thing that has been barred from us.

Dread necromancer would be good except the cleric domain Deathbound allows me to control three times my caster level instead of two. I'm not sure if that domain will really help make up for the lost time, but it will help in increasing the total undead I can control.
It allows you to create 3 times your caster level instead of two (in one csting).  You can normally control 4 times your caster level.

Dread Necromancer adds their DN level*Cha modifier to the number they can control. (and they get that benefit at the same time they get Animate Dead, as it's a 4th level spell for them).
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DeadLevel

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 10:15:48 PM »
It allows you to create 3 times your caster level instead of two (in one csting).  You can normally control 4 times your caster level.

Dread Necromancer adds their DN level*Cha modifier to the number they can control. (and they get that benefit at the same time they get Animate Dead, as it's a 4th level spell for them).

Correct you are. I apparently have misread that. Though with that it does mean i can grab the undeath domain and get animate dead as my third level domain spell. Oh and the Time domain. Everybody loves the time domain. Plus the higher utility of spells.

But that 4+Cha mod is pretty dang sexy and will increase my army size by tons.

qwvb

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 12:38:08 AM »

Correct you are. I apparently have misread that. Though with that it does mean i can grab the undeath domain and get animate dead as my third level domain spell. Oh and the Time domain. Everybody loves the time domain. Plus the higher utility of spells.

But that 4+Cha mod is pretty dang sexy and will increase my army size by tons.
Going Dread Necro that late into game might suck for a while, and don't forget the ASF... Mithril Breastplate as Armor...

But you would get unlimited undead healing, it's sweet as you are one yourself. You can gain access to Shivering Touch. You also get a familiar.

Cleric would offer you other options, but the Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery seems to be of high interest to you.

Don't forget your Rod of Undead Mastery for 20,000 gold from Libris Mortis p.78 to DOUBLE the number of HDs of undead you get to control.

Gunhaven

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 12:47:43 AM »
Aye, and raise them in a Desecrated zone so you can do 6*caster level with each Animate Dead spell.
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dna1

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 05:34:21 AM »
+1 for Dread Necro. but ya youl have to suffer thrue afew levels. Ur-Priest is a good idea to. Id go with one of those..
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DeadLevel

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2010, 11:14:53 AM »
Suffering a few levels will be fine. I expected that once I went from melee focus to spell focus. With my specialization in draining levels and high Str I should be fine for the time being. Plus the Death Knight Template gives me many extra's like a touch attack, undead followers (whose HD don't count towards my spellcaster HD), and a couple other neat bonuses.

So a lot of you point towards Dread Necro for it's amazing amount of undead one can control. The spells I can cast are pretty limited, and the bonuses aren't all that great besides the familier (though the choices are lacking). The lack of a BaB is a fair sized issue as well. However, the increased amount of undead I can control is a large bonus.

Ur-Priest has been tossed out there a couple of times as well. I'll have to read up on this class and see what it's all about.

A question I do have is does the Cha modifier for the Dread Necro's HD total get added to each level or is it simply added to the total?
Say I have a Cha mod of 5. Does this mean that with 2 Dread Necro levels I can control 18 HD ((5+4)+(5+4)) worth of undead, or 13 HD (4+4+5) worth of undead?

snakeman830

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2010, 12:14:42 PM »
18HD.  It's added to each Dread Necro level for controlled HD, but you don't get that benefit until Dread Necro 8.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Gunhaven

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2010, 02:56:27 PM »
18HD.  It's added to each Dread Necro level for controlled HD, but you don't get that benefit until Dread Necro 8.

Aye, this.  So you would get (4+5)*8 or 72HD worth of undead at DN 8 if you didn't increase it somehow.  In addition if you had a Rod of Undead Mastery from Libris Mortis, you would control twice the HD or 144.  If BAB is a concern then I would just recommend the Ur-Priest as well, which would get you 4*10 or 40HD worth of undead, 80 with the Rod.
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DeadLevel

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 10:50:48 AM »
Well after a long period of thinking, and a look over of my character, I have decided to go with Ur-priest. I had a couple of feats I wasn't sure what to do with at the time, but now I can put them to good use. I'll have to spend some time doing skill re-training, but that only takes time.

Thank you everyone for your help and input. I greatly appreciate it.

McPoyo

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Re: Soul Eater Death Knight Optimization help
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2010, 10:59:43 AM »
Well after a long period of thinking, and a look over of my character, I have decided to go with Ur-priest. I had a couple of feats I wasn't sure what to do with at the time, but now I can put them to good use. I'll have to spend some time doing skill re-training, but that only takes time.

Thank you everyone for your help and input. I greatly appreciate it.
You should post your new full build, just in case anyone else wants to play something similar. That way when they search for it, they can just see the whole thing as one piece instead of combing the thread for parts :)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]