Author Topic: Standard Cleric build [3.5] Persisting early, only level 6, advice welcome  (Read 13421 times)

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Sinatar

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I'm playing in a very short "campaign" (maybe 10 sessions tops). The other players asked me to be a cleric, at which I jumped at the chance. Most folks think of the cleric as a "boring heal-bot", but I'm fully aware that acting as a heal-bot is NOT how to play a cleric... in combat, anyway.

Anywho, we're all at level 6, so the "building budget" is rather tight. Any and all official 3.5 published material is allowed. I have digital access to pretty much everything.

That in mind, I was thinking of having him be a primary buffer / ranged caster. Which means Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell. I've already determined that I can persist two spells per day. Anyway, here's what I'm looking at...

Race: Strongheart Halfling (Human could work too, bonus feat is the most important thing)

Class: Cleric 6

Alternate Class Feature: Cloistered Cleric

House Rules: Initiative = d10 instead of d20 (shouldn't matter much)

Attributes (28 point buy):

Wis 17 --> 18 (gained at level 4) ---> 20 (Periapt of Wisdom +2)
Cha 14
Dex 12 --> 14 (racial)
Con 12
Int 8
Str 9 --> 7 (racial penalty)

Skills:

Concentration max, Spellcraft max, Knowledge Religion 5 ranks, leftover skill points go toward Knowledges... and maybe Tumble?

Domains:

Planning & Undeath (Extra Turning + Extend Spell, but terrible spell choices)

Feats: Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, Extra Turning, *1 unknown feat*

Items: Reliquary Holy Symbol (+3 turning attempts/day for 1,000gp), Scrolls/wands of Remove Blindness/Deafness, Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Remove Disease, Remove Curse, etc., scroll case, Heal Kit, standard adventuring gear (bedroll, canteen, other useful adventuring tools), *unknown other items*

Turning: +4 on check (CHA bonus + 2 for having 5 ranks in Knowledge: Religion), 16 turning attempts per day (3 base, 2 from CHA, 4 from Undeath domain, 4 from Extra Turning feat, 3 from Reliquary Holy Symbol), 14 of those attempts set aside to persist Prayer and Darkfire, while the remaining 2 will be used to Divine Spell Power Darkfire and Energy Vortex (or not, if another feat besides DSP is chosen)

Normally Prepared Spells:


* 0th level x5: Detect Magic x2, Create Water x1, Light x1

* 1st level x5: Healthful Rest x1, Command x1, Lesser Vigor x3

* 2nd level x4 : Spiritual Weapon x2, Resist Energy x1, Close Wounds x1

* 3rd level x3: Prayer [persisted] x1, Darkfire [persisted] x1, Energy Vortex x1

* Domain Spells: Ugh. Just use them for "spontaneous" cure spells (can't you spontaneously convert your prepared domain spells too?).

Unknown stuff:

I have an idea for the final feat, but it's sort of a gamble: Divine Spell Power. With the above build I will have 2 turning attempts leftover per day; they can be put to use quite well with Divine Spell Power. However, I would only be able to use Divine Spellpower with 2 spells, and there isn't even a guarantee that the caster level would increase.

My turning check with the feat is +7, meaning a roll of 2 or 1 would actually LOWER my caster level of the spell cast by 1. However, anything above a 5 means a caster level increase for the spell.

Any other suggestions here are welcome. Maybe a good "1st level only" feat instead of Divine Spell Power? Also for any items that I would be able to AFFORD after the above items are purchased.

Concepts & Reasoning:

Cloistered Cleric because this character will fight from a range. I may need to invest in Tumble as well, since the character's AC will be sub par and attacks of opportunity are still an issue. Staying 30 feet behind the frontline melee character will probably be the plan, in case I NEED to spontaneously cure (that will be a last resort/emergency plan). Otherwise, exclusively ranged character.

Prayer will be the all-in-one buff/debuff. It is Persistable since the range is 40 feet (fixed). Persist it and forget about any other spell buffs (except Resist Energy). The actual ruling for this may be flaky, but the idea is to also utilize the DEBUFF that comes with Prayer for 24 hours as well. My DM will allow this (I've already discussed the matter with him). This means that any enemy within 40 feet of my character takes a -1 penalty to AC, attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, skill checks, and saves. The only way for an enemy to resist the debuff is with spell resistance. So nearby allies are buffed all day, and nearby enemies are debuffed all day, basically guaranteed... all for the cost of one 3rd level spell and 7 turning attempts.

Darkfire is the other persisted spell. This concept here is quite interesting. The benefit is, obviously, you have infinite single-target nukes all day, using ranged TOUCH attacks. If Divine Spell Power is used in this build, I'd use it when persisting Darkfire at the beginning of the day to possibly have the nukes deal even more damage ALL DAY (4d6 or 5d6 instead of 3d6). But realize that doing this is BETTING on not rolling a 1 or a 2 with Divine Spellpower. So for the cost of one 3rd level spell and 7 turning attempts, you have an endless supply of single-target offensive fire attacks all day. The damage and hit rate are competitive at 6th level. Since the fire you are slinging is considered a THROWN WEAPON, it also benefits from your Persisted Prayer, meaning it gets a +1 on its attack and damage roll. Nice synergy here. I'd use Spiritual Weapon, however, BEFORE slinging fire. Spiritual Weapon requires no actions (except to change targets), so you can attack with SW and sling fire in the same turn (although SW does NOT benefit from Prayer).

A persisted Darkfire does have its drawbacks, however, but nothing that can't be worked around. For one thing, it means I only have 1 free hand all day. I will need the free hand to cast spells and to heal. This might be problematic... but if s*** ever hits the fan and I NEED two hands, I can always dismiss Darkfire. But my 3rd level spell slot and 7 turning attempts just went down the drain. Also, many creatures have Darkvision, which means that most of the time Darkfire isn't exactly "invisible." However, this shouldn't be a huge deal, since the character is RANGED anyway, which means the character should be in the back of the line, well behind the scout while exploring a dungeon. Also, underwater, this strategy is completely shut down. But hopefully a 6th level character won't be going on any underwater missions. Oh, and did I mention firing into melee? This character will have to eat that -4 penalty, assuming a melee ally is threatening the same target. However... 4 (BAB) +2 (DEX mod) +1 (size) +1 (racial) +1 (Prayer) = +9 on the ranged touch attack, -4 = +5 on the ranged touch attack, while the target takes a -1 to AC if within 40 feet... meh, that's sub par, but at level 6 that's still an okay hit rate. Most CR 6-7 creatures don't have above a 11 touch AC, which means rolling at least a 5 (assuming Prayer debuff) will likely hit. *shrugs*

Energy Vortex will be a 1 time/day AoE nuke. The plan is to use Resist Energy before going into a big room, using an educated guess for which energy to resist. Then during a fight against heavy numbers, I'd use a Divine Spellpowered Energy Vortex to quickly reduce those numbers. I'd allow the EV to hit myself as well. Rolling at least a 6 on the turning check, EV will have its caster level increased, meaning an even bigger boom. Let's say I do roll a 6, so my caster level is treated as 7. The average damage I will deal is 1d8+7 doubled is 23, if Reflex save DC18 then 11. Not bad for a 6th level cleric. Remember that any ally would receive a +1 on this save and any enemy would receive a -1 from Prayer.

Weaknesses

* Defenses (saves and AC) and HP are LOW. I'll have to rely on movement, allies, positioning and offense to survive
* 1 free hand (problematic for climbing ladders, walking around in town, etc.)
* Only offense consists of Force or Fire damage. Many enemies resist fire.
* The build's strong points are a gamble... DSPing Darkfire, DSPing EV, using EV with the intent of eliminating numbers, and using Darkfire against a threatened target.
* Forced to deal with -4 firing into melee penalty when on the offensive

...

I'm welcome to any and all suggestions and feedback, especially for a feat and items with any leftover gold.

borg286

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But can you heal?    :lmao

NOTE: I don't think you can convert your domain spells to healing spells.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 08:52:18 PM by borg286 »

Arcane-surge

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I don't think persisting Prayer is all that valuable. It's a burst, so it doesn't continue to radiate for the duration (or it'd be an emanation). And the bonuses/penalties are kinda crappy for what you could be getting. I'd recommend Channelled Divine Shield, from PHB II. Persistable dr 10/evil is nice.

Also, to get the three extra turns from Reliquary Holy Symbol, don't you need Improved Turning? That could be your extra feat, but I'd recommend Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick up the Necromancy Domain power from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It gives you Rebuke Undead without costing you a dip into Dread Necromancer, and basically doubles your persisting pool.
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borg286

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The kind of Healer I'd build would be an artificer.  At level 6 he can get 3rd level infusions, namely augment armor.  Use Healing armor to do enable whomever needs is wearing the armor to spend a swift action to heal themselves 3d8+15.  This on top of making scrolls of CLW and that should satisfy their healing needs.  The rest of the artificer can be made to do whatever you want.

Vicerious

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Just a little nitpick, but cloistered clerics use the poor BAB progression, like a wizard.  So your BAB for level 6 would be +3, not +4.

@Arcane-surge: You're correct in that the reliquary holy symbol grants 1 extra turning for each of: having 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (Religion), having a divine feat (like DMM), and for having Improved Turning.  So right now it's granting Sinatar's cleric 2 turnings, not 3.
"A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire

PhaedrusXY

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For all that work... I still think this character is kind of weak. Three to five d6 damage per round isn't much. The nuking thing could be done better by just about anything with a semi-optimized Reserve feat. I'd suggest focusing on something else. Something that clerics are actually good at.

One thing a 6th level cleric can do like nobody's business is make and control powerful animated undead. With the Deathbound domain, and a Death Knell, you can animate 42 hit dice of undead per casting. Tack on the Corpsecrafter feat, and make sure to do it in a Desecrated area with an altar to your (evil) deity, and say hello to your new undead army.

Take the Divine Magician alternate class feature to grab Command Undead as a spell known, and you can control more mindless undead than you'll know what to do with.

Now you just need bodies. And lots of onyx.

This will be so much more effective than throwing 4d6 damage fire attacks per round, you won't know what to do with yourself. And you still have all of your Rebuke attempts to control undead that aren't mindless. So you can start a shadow army in your spare time.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Sinatar

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Quote
But can you heal?    :lmao

NOTE: I don't think you can convert your domain spells to healing spells.

"The cleric can 'lose' any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower..."

From PHB. So you are correct, no spontaneous conversion of the domain spells. However, by casting Healthful Rest once in the morning, Lesser Vigor will heal the target for 30 damage over 15 rounds (minute and a half) instead of the normal 15. This will be the way to go for out-of-combat healing, but if healing needs to happen IN-combat, either the allies will need to heal themselves, or I will need to spontaneously convert a prepared spell. Healing Belts are cheap and efficient at low levels too. We're trying to AVOID in-combat healing, but if it NEEDS to happen, it can. :p I'm trying to be a primary buffer/ranged caster, NOT primary in-combat healer.

Quote
I'd recommend Channelled Divine Shield, from PHB II. Persistable dr 10/evil is nice.

I love that spell, and while it does make for an excellent persist candidate, I want to buff my allies, NOT just myself. My goal will be to avoid melee damage altogether (by staying at range). I want to persist something that will benefit the whole party all day. There aren't a whole lot of great spells below 4th level that do this. I'm welcome to other party-buffing ideas than Persistent Prayer, though. Hit me.

Quote
Also, to get the three extra turns from Reliquary Holy Symbol, don't you need Improved Turning?
Quote
@Arcane-surge: You're correct in that the reliquary holy symbol grants 1 extra turning for each of: having 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (Religion), having a divine feat (like DMM), and for having Improved Turning.  So right now it's granting Sinatar's cleric 2 turnings, not 3.

Bah, I was thinking that the Reliquary Holy Symbol needed the EXTRA Turning feat, not IMPROVED Turning. My bad. Both of you are correct, which means the character's total turning attempts for the day would be 15 instead of 16, and Divine Spell Power is now looking even less appealing. :p If Divine Spell Power IS used, it would only be used for Energy Vortex, and not for persisted Darkfire. Still, at this point, I think it's safe to just forget about DSP altogether and figure out the character's final feat.

Quote
That could be your extra feat, but I'd recommend Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick up the Necromancy Domain power from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It gives you Rebuke Undead without costing you a dip into Dread Necromancer, and basically doubles your persisting pool.

I remember hearing about this trick before, but I had completely forgotten about it. I like it... a lot. It's at least better than Extra Turning, which means this feat would take priority over Extra Turning... at least first. The BEST thing about this trick is that it works best WITH Extra turning, since the Extra Turning feat isn't "fixed" to either turning or rebuking.

"Each time you take this feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day."

From PHB. So after taking Planar Touchstone with Catalogues of Enlightenment, each Extra Turning feat actually gives you EIGHT Divine Metamagic units. I love it. I'll need to look more closely into Reliquary Holy Symbol's description to see if this feat would give me 4 extra turning attempts with that item or just the normal 2.

*sigh* I only hope my DM will allow this. I'm already cheesing it with DMM Persist as it is... this would make it possible for me to persist ~4 spells per day. *drools* At any rate, thanks for sharing this awesometastic trick.

Quote
Just a little nitpick, but cloistered clerics use the poor BAB progression, like a wizard.  So your BAB for level 6 would be +3, not +4.

Yep, I completely forgot about cloistered reducing BAB from 3/4 to 1/2, thanks for pointing this out.

PhaedrusXY

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If you're married to the DMM: Persistent route, pick up a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend. You can apply Extend after applying Persist, and have your buffs last two days instead of one. Then you can alternate the buffs you cast, and have twice as many running at once.

Knowledge Devotion will also add onto your attack and damage rolls for your nuking.

Sadly most of the cleric's buffs are self-only, especially at this level. You could slap on a Mass Lesser Vigor, though. That will give at least some of your partymates fast healing 1 all day (or 2 if you use Healthful Rest also).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 05:08:51 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Sinatar

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For all that work... I still think this character is kind of weak. Three to five d6 damage per round isn't much. The nuking thing could be done better by just about anything with a semi-optimized Reserve feat. I'd suggest focusing on something else. Something that clerics are actually good at.

One thing a 6th level cleric can do like nobody's business is make and control powerful animated undead. With the Deathbound domain, and a Death Knell, you can animate 42 hit dice of undead per casting. Tack on the Corpsecrafter feat, and make sure to do it in a Desecrated area with an altar to your (evil) deity, and say hello to your new undead army.

Take the Divine Magician alternate class feature to grab Command Undead as a spell known, and you can control more mindless undead than you'll know what to do with.

Now you just need bodies. And lots of onyx.

This will be so much more effective than throwing 4d6 damage fire attacks per round, you won't know what to do with yourself. And you still have all of your Rebuke attempts to control undead that aren't mindless. So you can start a shadow army in your spare time.

Wow. That sounds awesome. *sigh* But one fairly big detail I left out is that all the players for this "mini" campaign are good (as requested by the DM, for role-play/storyline purposes), so unfortunately your incredible suggestion is negated. But I do love evil clerics... they can do some amazing things.

I hate to push this idea aside (but I WILL keep it in mind for future campaigns), but I'm open to any other efficient enemy-eliminating ideas. *sigh* an undead army like that would be a beautiful thing, though.

borg286

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Get a bunch of animal companions (riding dogs, mage bred riding dogs...) as well as some constructs and other minions, as many as you can afford, and spam mass snake's swiftness in a scroll or wand if you can afford one made by yourself (artificer) and thus you have healing as well as an army.

Rebel7284

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IMO DMM clerics make great tanks at this level.  

In the last campaign, one of my friends played a DMM cleric of Chronopsis(sp?) whatever the random time dragon is.

14 Cha
Standard Cleric for the BAB and heavy armor.
Celerity and Planning Domains (improved initiative and extend spell)

Feats:
1: Persistant Spell
H: DMM[Persist]
3: Extra Turning
6: Extra Turning

Turning Attempts: 3+2 Cha+2 Reliquary Holy Symbol+ 4 Nightstick(limit 1) + 8 Extra Turning + 2 Eagle's Splendor Cast in the beginning of the day.
= 21 turn attempt.  With Rod of Extend he had 6 spells running all day and still had level 2 slots for Close Wounds to heal during combat when needed.

Persisted Spells:
1. Ice Axe - Better damage at this level than Darkfire.  Can't do ranged though.
2. Cloud of Knives - Free attacks all day!  He roleplayed it great as well, getting great circumstance bonuses to intimidate from this spell.
3. Lesser Mass Vigor - Because free healing is nice.
4. Divine Retaliation - MORE free attacks.  Karmic Strike can suck it!
5. Prayer - it IS very yummy.
6. Divine Favor

I eventually found Channeled Divine Shield too, but he never got to use it, the campaign ended due to conflicting schedules.  Would probably have replaced Divine Favor.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 06:15:08 PM by Rebel7284 »
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

fuinjutsu

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How about that spell that gives a non-resistance bonus to saves (forget name, started with C)
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Arcane-surge

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Conviction.
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Rebel7284

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How about that spell that gives a non-resistance bonus to saves (forget name, started with C)

(Mass) Conviction?  Doesn't quite work.  Either touch or medium range.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

PhaedrusXY

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Wow. That sounds awesome. *sigh* But one fairly big detail I left out is that all the players for this "mini" campaign are good (as requested by the DM, for role-play/storyline purposes), so unfortunately your incredible suggestion is negated. But I do love evil clerics... they can do some amazing things.

I hate to push this idea aside (but I WILL keep it in mind for future campaigns), but I'm open to any other efficient enemy-eliminating ideas. *sigh* an undead army like that would be a beautiful thing, though.
Some of my favorite clerics are true neutral clerics of true neutral gods. You can cast any spell you want, completely bypassing all the alignment restrictions. If you worship a god of magic (like Boccob), you can make it make sense from a roleplaying perspective, also. You're as detached and uncaring as your divine master. The undead are merely another tool that you use. Most of the time you use them to do good, as you see that being "good" is the most logical way to behave most of the time. But you're not going to limit your options because of some fools' superstitious squeamishness. :D

Look at the Karnathi empire in the Eberron book for a society based on this kind of ideals. They use undead like we use automation in modern society.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

fuinjutsu

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How about that spell that gives a non-resistance bonus to saves (forget name, started with C)

(Mass) Conviction?  Doesn't quite work.  Either touch or medium range.

Did they change it then?  Because I recall mass conviction having exactly the same targeting as Mass lesser Vigor
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Sinatar

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If you're married to the DMM: Persistent route, pick up a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend. You can apply Extend after applying Persist, and have your buffs last two days instead of one. Then you can alternate the buffs you cast, and have twice as many running at once.

Knowledge Devotion will also add onto your attack and damage rolls for your nuking.

Sadly most of the cleric's buffs are self-only, especially at this level. You could slap on a Mass Lesser Vigor, though. That will give at least some of your partymates fast healing 1 all day (or 2 if you use Healthful Rest also).

See, being of good alignment, I'm not sure of any better alternative. I thought about going the Reach Spell / Chain Spell route, but Persist just seems better (for level 6), but I suppose I could be wrong.

I'll probably end up going with persisting Mass Lesser Vigor INSTEAD of Prayer. However, If I really CAN persist ~4 spells per day like we've discussed, I'm not sure what other spells I should persist. Someone suggested Channeled Divine Shield, which is a good candidate. Bull's Str/Cat's Grace/Bear's Endurance for allies are always decent options, I suppose.

That Metamagic Rod: Extend idea sounds great, but I'm not sure if I could afford that with my gold pool. I'll need to check. It would be worlds better than Extending with the feat that my character would already have with the Planning Domain.

Rebel7284

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It's only 3000 Gold.  Talk to your teammates about donating you money for fast healing 1 in return. :)

Do see if you can get to 21 turn attempts (or that rebuke trick).  6-8 Spells is plain sexy. :)
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

fuinjutsu

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It's only 3000 Gold.  Talk to your teammates about donating you money for fast healing 1 in return. :)

Do see if you can get to 21 turn attempts (or that rebuke trick).  6-8 Spells is plain sexy. :)

Azurin Cleric 7/Sacred Exorcist1

Double your pool
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Sinatar

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IMO DMM clerics make great tanks at this level.  

In the last campaign, one of my friends played a DMM cleric of Chronopsis(sp?) whatever the random time dragon is.

14 Cha
Standard Cleric for the BAB and heavy armor.
Celerity and Planning Domains (improved initiative and extend spell)

Feats:
1: Persistant Spell
H: DMM[Persist]
3: Extra Turning
6: Extra Turning

Turning Attempts: 3+2 Cha+2 Reliquary Holy Symbol+ 4 Nightstick(limit 1) + 8 Extra Turning + 2 Eagle's Splendor Cast in the beginning of the day.
= 21 turn attempt.  With Rod of Extend he had 6 spells running all day and still had level 2 slots for Close Wounds to heal during combat when needed.

Persisted Spells:
1. Ice Axe - Better damage at this level than Darkfire.  Can't do ranged though.
2. Cloud of Knives - Free attacks all day!  He roleplayed it great as well, getting great circumstance bonuses to intimidate from this spell.
3. Lesser Mass Vigor - Because free healing is nice.
4. Divine Retaliation - MORE free attacks.  Karmic Strike can suck it!
5. Prayer - it IS very yummy.
6. Divine Favor

I eventually found Channeled Divine Shield too, but he never got to use it, the campaign ended due to conflicting schedules.  Would probably have replaced Divine Favor.

Whoa... I very much like this setup. I didn't even think about Divine Retaliation being persistable. *drools* That is just beautiful.

There are several things with the Ice Axe vs. Darkfire delima. Yes, Darkfire is Ranged Touch while Ice Axe is melee touch. Yes, more enemies are resistant to fire than there are enemies resistant to cold. Yes, Ice Axe deals more damage than Darkfire. :p And yes, Ice Axe benefits from Prayer as well, since you're considered wielding a weapon with it. And unlike Darkfire, with Ice Axe you can have the axe disappear and re-appear at will. And to top it all off, not only are you worry-free from the "firing into melee" penalty with Ice Axe, but you can also flank/charge/etc. with it as well.

On the other hand, it doesn't mix well with the Cloistered Cleric ACF, nor with the 28-point buy allotment I have set up. Not to mention you'd want to be a Human instead of Strongheart Halfling with Ice Axe. Even so, I still think Ice Axe is a better over-all choice than Darkfire.

At any rate, that's what I needed: Some persistable spell ideas. Thanks!