Author Topic: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook  (Read 25434 times)

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Archao

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2010, 06:31:03 PM »
I'm going to have to point some attention to the Feign Death ACF from EoE. While the ability to appear dead at will isn't all that great, the ability also makes you immune to damn near everything as an immediate action (plus the standard to end the effect).
Excerpt posted for ease of access. Though this ability could certainly be used to your advantage when low on health (or generally tricking someone) I could easily see a DM using knowledge of it to make every enemy attempt to Coup de Grace you "to make sure".
Quote from: Exemplars of Evil, p21
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the evasion ability. If your class would grant you improved evasion at a higher level, you instead gain evasion.

Benefit: As an immediate action, you can enter a catatonic state in which you appear to be dead. While feigning death, you cannot see or feel anything, but you retain the ability to smell, hear, and otherwise follow what is going on around you.

While under the effect of this ability, you are immune to all mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, ability drain, negative levels, and death effects. Attempts to resuscitate you, such as raise dead or reincarnation, automatically fail, though resurrection and true resurrection immediately end your feign death ability.

Spells and other effects that assess your current condition, such as status and deathwatch, indicate that you are dead. However, a character who succeeds on a Heal check (DC 15 + 1/2 your level + your Con modifi er) can discern that you are actually alive.

You can remain in the catatonic state indefinitely, though you still require food, water, and air. Emerging from feigned death is a standard action.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2010, 06:49:23 PM »
It's freaking awesome. Even if your HP pool is full.
Wizard's casting a death effect on the poor rogue? Immediate action, BOOM, can't touch this. Standard action to recover and use that move action to mock them.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2010, 07:04:07 PM »
There's also the Vile feat that lets you translate your Sneak Attack into Cha damage. AFB, but I've posted on it before.

Edit: Found it. Maiming Strike
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 04:36:20 AM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2010, 07:18:40 AM »
And since it's cha DAMAGE a critical hit would double that, right?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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dark_samuari

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2010, 07:28:39 AM »
I'm considering using a theme character for this guide.

I'm interested in which thematic character you drew inspiration from as I happen to be also writing a guide using a theme character as the focus.

My guide is focused in the skill portion of being a skill monkey though. Niche market, woo!

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2010, 07:35:55 AM »
I'm considering using a theme character for this guide.

I'm interested in which thematic character you drew inspiration from as I happen to be also writing a guide using a theme character as the focus.

My guide is focused in the skill portion of being a skill monkey though. Niche market, woo!

It's a secret :P You will find soon enough though!
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2010, 02:09:22 PM »
And since it's cha DAMAGE a critical hit would double that, right?

IT goes both ways on this one. Either it's like sneak attack, and not applicable for crits (which is possible because it is derived from SA), or it's a bonus to your damage rolls, and thus multiplied like Power Attack.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2010, 11:40:00 AM »
What i learned while making the handbook:

Forget two weapon fighting. Secondary natural attacks are the real shit.
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snakeman830

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2010, 02:05:40 PM »
@snakeman830:
Wait, so... Rogue 7/Swordsage 13 in Assassin's stace sacrifices 6d6 SA, for 3 points of charisma damage... Full TWF mongoose, potentially 30 charisma damage per round? Wow, two lucky rounds puts even the nastiest dragons and sorcerers down, and one round should be enough for most things.

60d6 SA may sound like a lot, but it's only 210 average damage - nowhere near enough to hurt any of the nastier monsters around that point, but most things won't have Cha 30.

just checked this again and no, they can't.  They need 1d6 more sneak attack dice as you still have to deal at least 1 die of SA damage to use Ambush feats.

So a Rogue 9/Swordsage 11 does so, or a Rogue 5/Spellthief 1/Swordsage 14 with Assassin's Stance and an item giving an additional 1d6 sneak attack (you get 9th level manuvers with this build :p)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 02:07:12 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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[/spoiler]

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fuinjutsu

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #89 on: September 03, 2010, 07:17:31 PM »
What i learned while making the handbook:

Forget two weapon fighting. Secondary natural attacks are the real shit.

QFT.  Changeling Rogue/Warshaper FTW (It doesn't say how many natural weapons you can make.  :P  )
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Amechra

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #90 on: September 03, 2010, 07:23:29 PM »
Must have something about the timberrogue.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #91 on: September 04, 2010, 01:05:31 AM »
Not sure if the topic''s been mentioned yet, I know that explaining SA and the likes has, but a useful addition to the guide might be a section discussing the many ways to activate Sneak Attack. Ways of making opponents flat-footed, flanked (ranged i.e. Whisperknife) and such. Things like Perpetual Flank via Clarion Commander, and how to use the different ways optimally, like Invisible Blade + Surprising Riposte for feinting SA users.

Just a thought.

Echoes

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #92 on: September 04, 2010, 09:22:34 PM »
So, I've been doing a lot of poking around for cool Rogue tech, most of which seems to already be listed here. I did, however, want to share a build that I'm real fond of. It's pretty much strictly a damage machine, although it remains extremely stealthy.

[spoiler]
Assuming LA Buyoff: Dark Dvati Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 15/Sneak Attack Fighter 1.
Goes Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Rogue +3/Swashbuckler +1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler +13 (and yes, this would incur XP penalties, but those are dumb and every smart DM I've dealt with has waived them, so *shrug*).

Notable Feats: Daring Outlaw, Craven, Maiming Strike, Martial Stance (assassin's stance, qualified for with a shadow hand item), Two-Weapon Fighting.
Notable Items: Bracers of the hunter + bracers of murder (combined into 1 item, costs 14.5k), gloves of the balanced hand, rogue's vest.
Weapons: Assuming custom items (or at least deriving the cost of unique magic item effects), take the +4 atk/dmg on SAs from the sword of subtlety (costs 20k by itself), add that to a manyfang dagger (total cost, 52k). Now, enchant a pair of those for each twin with assassination, deadly precision, and martial discipline (shadow hand). With GMW, you now deal 4d4+172 plus 17d6 SA with each stab, assuming a final Dex of 34. Your AB is +49, counting flanking, attacking a flat-footed opponent, and delivering a SA while hasted. Your final attack routine is +48/+48/+48/+43/+43/+38/+33, each attack dealing 4d4+220 damage, plus 17d6 SA. Sacrifice 16 of those to deal 1d6 SA damage and 8 Charisma damage. Now, do that again because both twins are full-attacking. That's a total of 14 attacks, avg. total damage is 3269 physical and 112 Cha damage. That's without counting the rerolls for the SA from the bracers.

The main issue with this build (and all Dvati builds, really) is that you need enough gear for 2 PCs. Still, if you can pull it off, this duo can kill pretty much anything around. Note that they still do 56 Cha to targets normally immune to SA, so they still kill pretty much everything in one round. With Darkstalker plus a ring of the darkhidden, they can sneak up on pretty much everything without Mindsight, and with a way to block telepathy (mind blank possibly) they can sneak up on them too. Targets who can't be flat-footed are the worst for this duo, since a decent chunk of their damage (about 64 dmg per hit) is lost, and they lose a bit of AB.
[/spoiler]
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zaulsiin

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2010, 04:18:11 PM »
If you're focusing on Dex and taking Sneak Attack variant Fighter, you may as well tack on the Hit-And-Run ACF from Drow of the Underdark as well. Gain some initiative and (more importantly) add Dex to dmg whenever the opponent is flat-footed, and all you lose is heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency (which you're not using as a rogue, anyway).

Shadowhunter

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2010, 05:35:41 PM »
Someone mentioned Dex to damage.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

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[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #95 on: September 05, 2010, 08:41:49 PM »
Guys, the fighter dip is mentioned... a lot. In truth, it's average. Just compare it with a crusader dip. Maneuvers, more skills, 5 hp buffer and MANEUVERS.
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snakeman830

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2010, 06:40:22 PM »
Okay, since I said Rogues can make good debuffers via the use of Ambush feats.

Lesser Tiefling Rogue 18/Swordsage 2 (note: the Swordsage levels are mainly there for another 1d6 sneak attack and aren't actually necessary.  Two more Rogue levels, or a Rogue and a Spellthief level, work fine)

Feats:

1. Staggering Strike
3. Sickening Strike
6. Terrifying Strike
9. Deafening Strike
12. Gloom Strike
15. Maiming Strike
18. Craven

Note: most of the feats can be swapped around, so long as you have enough sneak attack dice.

What weapon you use isn't too important.  You can go Unarmed Swordsage and be a fairly effective debuffer while naked.

Crippling Strike is a taken Special Ability.  Other than that, it's up to you.

When in Assassin's Stance (so pretty much all the time), you have 11d6 sneak attack dice to play with before items

So, on one attack, you can apply Sickening (-1d6), Terrifying (-1d6), Gloom (-2d6), Deafening (-3d6), and one iteration of Maiming strike.  This gives the target a -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks and a -2 penalty on damage rolls for 1 round, automatic failure on Listen, -4 Spot, -4 Initiative, 20% chance to fail any verbal component spell, and everyone has concealment relative to them for 3 rounds, 2 strength damage, 1 Ch damage, and a Fort save DC 30+2d6+weapon damage (not including sneak attack) or be stuck with a standard OR move action on the next turn.  Not too bad for a equipment-less punch.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 08:47:06 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2010, 06:48:42 PM »
It's freaking awesome. Even if your HP pool is full.
Wizard's casting a death effect on the poor rogue? Immediate action, BOOM, can't touch this. Standard action to recover and use that move action to mock them.
Wow. That is some insane  :censored right there...

Here is an Unseen Seer "rogue" build I've been working on... that has no levels of rogue, or any other typical rogue-ish class, but which I think can perform the job better than almost any of them.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #98 on: September 10, 2010, 02:48:50 AM »
Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #99 on: September 10, 2010, 03:04:18 AM »
Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.
It doesn't take up a feat slot, only a Heal check reveals you're dead (and really, who puts ranks in Heal when they could just buy a CLW wand), and it provides immunity to quite a bit more than death effects and energy drain.