Author Topic: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook  (Read 25473 times)

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veekie

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2010, 08:07:04 PM »
Well, for rogues, theres quite a lot of variance in play style, which is tricky to make a general guide for.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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[/spoiler]

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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2010, 05:16:18 PM »
I'm considering using a theme character for this guide.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


McPoyo

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2010, 05:34:44 PM »
Doooo eeeet
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]


Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2010, 09:34:22 PM »
I am, offline.
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snakeman830

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2010, 01:27:18 PM »
Ambush Feats (and ratings)

Blue= excellent
Black= average/situational, but excellent
Red= bad

Arterial Strike (CW): This one is varied.  The amount of damage each round is minimal, making this feat much more effective when you have a long running battle or need to leave the fight early.  The excellent part is that multiple hits stack, so it's not uncommon to have someone losing several hp a round and the price is minimal at only 1d6 damage.  The bad part is that it's rather easy to remove, as even a Cure Minor Wounds will do it.  Still, most foes in the MM don't have magical healing available to them normally (Fast Healing and Regeneration don't stop it) and even fewer have ranks in Heal.

Concussion attack (CS): I'm not sure how often a -2 penalty on Int and Wis checks/skill checks will help you out.  Maybe if you're trying to sneak around the battlefield?  Oh wait, you just took a -20 penalty on your hide check by attacking.  Yeah, I'd rather have the 2d6 damage and feat slot.

Deafening Strike (CS): 3d6 damage may seem rough, but Deafening is an awesome condition.  
Quote from: SRD
Deafened
A deafened character cannot hear. She takes a -4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Listen checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Yeah, getting the drop on a foe to nail them with that is awesome.  Even if you can't get on them before initiative is rolled, it's still nasty to spellcasters. Look at how many spells require verbal components.  Oh, and a number of creatures with Blindsense/sight rely on hearing.  Deafen them, and they're basically useless.  I'd say this is worth the cost.

Disembowling Strike CS):Gloom Strike (DotU):Hamstring (CW): 2d6 damage is the price you pay, but cutting your foes speed in half can make it more difficult for them to do things (like walk out of a Cloudkill).  Unfortunately, it loses its appeal at higher levels when more and more enemies have Fly speeds.  Situationally a lifesaver, but not necessarily worth having in a feat slot.

Headshot (CS):save?  Screw that.  This is probably the worst ambush feat printed.

Impeding Attack (CS): 3d6 damage for a -2 penalty on Str and Dex ability and skill checks for a minute.  Not bad.  Not the most useful, but depending on the build, it can be extremely handy.  Your party members may be able to make better use of it than you can.

Maiming Strike (EoE):Merciful Strike (CS):Persistant Attacker (CS): 4d6 damage is a lot to trade, but guaranteeing your first attack next round to be a sneak attack may just be worth it.  Of course, one focused on sneak attack should probably have plenty of methods to ensure sneak attacks anyway, so this probably loses out to better options.

Sickening Strike (DotU)Terrifying Strike (DotU):Venemous Strike (DotU):
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 01:29:58 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2010, 08:25:03 PM »
Rogue, in case Tiers is part of the data, generated the largest longest loudest yap about which tier it goes into.

While normally I sit out stuff like that, the point that it caused that much "ink" to spill,
indicates something real was happening there.
Tier 3 via this one side.
Tier 4 via that one side.
Not that I'm trying to restart the yap ... heh.

Obviously playing a Rogue is more complicated than some other classes.
... and r o u g e is soo annoying.

Senevri

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2010, 06:20:45 AM »
@snakeman830:
Wait, so... Rogue 7/Swordsage 13 in Assassin's stace sacrifices 6d6 SA, for 3 points of charisma damage... Full TWF mongoose, potentially 30 charisma damage per round? Wow, two lucky rounds puts even the nastiest dragons and sorcerers down, and one round should be enough for most things.

60d6 SA may sound like a lot, but it's only 210 average damage - nowhere near enough to hurt any of the nastier monsters around that point, but most things won't have Cha 30.

McPoyo

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2010, 09:12:17 AM »
@snakeman830:
Wait, so... Rogue 7/Swordsage 13 in Assassin's stace sacrifices 6d6 SA, for 3 points of charisma damage... Full TWF mongoose, potentially 30 charisma damage per round? Wow, two lucky rounds puts even the nastiest dragons and sorcerers down, and one round should be enough for most things.

60d6 SA may sound like a lot, but it's only 210 average damage - nowhere near enough to hurt any of the nastier monsters around that point, but most things won't have Cha 30.

Yes.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2010, 04:00:31 PM »
That's pretty slick, is there any way of delivering a coup de grace as a standard action? I googled it, but to no avail.

zaulsiin

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2010, 04:04:01 PM »
That's pretty slick, is there any way of delivering a coup de grace as a standard action? I googled it, but to no avail.

The Death Blow feat from Complete Adventurer.

snakeman830

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2010, 04:57:04 PM »
That's pretty slick, is there any way of delivering a coup de grace as a standard action? I googled it, but to no avail.

The Death Blow feat from Complete Adventurer.
Black Blood Cultists get a move-action coup de gras.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2010, 08:05:55 AM »
I'm going on vacation for the next two or three weeks, probably with little to no access to the internets. I'm going to print as many rogue threads I can find (including this one) and use them to compile the handbook.
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Mixster

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2010, 09:18:21 AM »
I'd like to mention the invisible blade PrC (CW 44).

While the prerequisites are annoying, it is still a class that gives you a quite good sneak attack delivery system, Int to AC, full Base attack bonus and full sneak attack. A good choice if you ask me.
Having to waste two feats (and get one that is dubious) is a bit bad though. But with something like SA fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 2 with daring Outlaw you should be able to enter without losing to much.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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snakeman830

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2010, 11:05:37 AM »
I'd like to mention the invisible blade PrC (CW 44).

While the prerequisites are annoying, it is still a class that gives you a quite good sneak attack delivery system, Int to AC, full Base attack bonus and full sneak attack. A good choice if you ask me.
Having to waste two feats (and get one that is dubious) is a bit bad though. But with something like SA fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 2 with daring Outlaw you should be able to enter without losing to much.
The creator suggested you drop the ranged feats from the prerequisites entirely.  Master Thrower and Invisible Blade were originally one, 10-level PRC, but WotC decided to split them and the prerequisites for Invisible Blade never got changed to account for that.  I think his suggestion was Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, punching dagger) and Weapon Finesse, but I'd have to find the link to be sure.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2010, 03:52:15 PM »
I'd like to mention the invisible blade PrC (CW 44).

While the prerequisites are annoying, it is still a class that gives you a quite good sneak attack delivery system, Int to AC, full Base attack bonus and full sneak attack. A good choice if you ask me.
Having to waste two feats (and get one that is dubious) is a bit bad though. But with something like SA fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 2 with daring Outlaw you should be able to enter without losing to much.
The creator suggested you drop the ranged feats from the prerequisites entirely.  Master Thrower and Invisible Blade were originally one, 10-level PRC, but WotC decided to split them and the prerequisites for Invisible Blade never got changed to account for that.  I think his suggestion was Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, punching dagger) and Weapon Finesse, but I'd have to find the link to be sure.

This helps:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=143.msg276558#msg276558
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2010, 04:16:20 PM »
Oh, let me advocate PERPETUAL FLANK (clarion commander feat, I think) at this point. It's delicious for lonesome rogues or ones with un-cooperative allies.

Let's be honest here: If your allies aren't willing to help you Flank someone, they're either Evokers who banned Conjuration or Orc Barbarians RPing their Int score of 3. And failing.


Personally: No Rogue handbook is complete without mentioning Wands and their activation times. Remember to never put ranks in Open Lock if you can buy a Wand instead.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2010, 04:29:14 PM »
Or Silent portal disks, for your Dungeoncrashing friend.

genERRORic

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Re: Let's talk about a rogue's handbook
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »
I'm going to have to point some attention to the Feign Death ACF from EoE. While the ability to appear dead at will isn't all that great, the ability also makes you immune to damn near everything as an immediate action (plus the standard to end the effect).