Author Topic: Attempting to Rebalance Magic  (Read 10345 times)

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Saxony

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2010, 09:06:41 AM »
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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2010, 12:15:35 PM »
Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).

They'd have to multiclass into other schools of magic to get access to other schools (Example: I'm an Evocation Wizard 10/Conjuration Wizard 10. That means I cast a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Evocation spells and as a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Conjuration spells).

And then balancing each school to about Evocation's level so everyone doesn't just pick Conjuration or Transmutation on their Wizard (as is detailed in this thread).

If everyone is cool with spellcasters losing their game breaking versatility, that's how you do it.

If everyone still wants some classes to be vastly more powerful than other classes, nothing needs to be changed.
I've done that before, and it DOES work. But not with highly optimized parties. Otherwise the ToB leap attacking shocktroopers make the wizards feel completely useless. I can't seem to find my file for the spells I adjusted. If I find it, I'll post a link just so an example could be made. It wasn't great, but it worked for the players using it.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Saxony

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2010, 12:30:01 PM »
Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).

They'd have to multiclass into other schools of magic to get access to other schools (Example: I'm an Evocation Wizard 10/Conjuration Wizard 10. That means I cast a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Evocation spells and as a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Conjuration spells).

And then balancing each school to about Evocation's level so everyone doesn't just pick Conjuration or Transmutation on their Wizard (as is detailed in this thread).

If everyone is cool with spellcasters losing their game breaking versatility, that's how you do it.

If everyone still wants some classes to be vastly more powerful than other classes, nothing needs to be changed.
I've done that before, and it DOES work. But not with highly optimized parties. Otherwise the ToB leap attacking shocktroopers make the wizards feel completely useless. I can't seem to find my file for the spells I adjusted. If I find it, I'll post a link just so an example could be made. It wasn't great, but it worked for the players using it.
Could exclusive access to 2 schools possibly work in this situation? 3 schools?
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McPoyo

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2010, 12:32:56 PM »
Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).

They'd have to multiclass into other schools of magic to get access to other schools (Example: I'm an Evocation Wizard 10/Conjuration Wizard 10. That means I cast a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Evocation spells and as a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Conjuration spells).

And then balancing each school to about Evocation's level so everyone doesn't just pick Conjuration or Transmutation on their Wizard (as is detailed in this thread).

If everyone is cool with spellcasters losing their game breaking versatility, that's how you do it.

If everyone still wants some classes to be vastly more powerful than other classes, nothing needs to be changed.
I've done that before, and it DOES work. But not with highly optimized parties. Otherwise the ToB leap attacking shocktroopers make the wizards feel completely useless. I can't seem to find my file for the spells I adjusted. If I find it, I'll post a link just so an example could be made. It wasn't great, but it worked for the players using it.
Could exclusive access to 2 schools possibly work in this situation? 3 schools?
I also ran a "Pick one primary, and two secondary" game once. It didn't run more than two sessions due to work schedules trashing it. I'll see if I lost that when the old hard drive crashed it's platters or not.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

dither

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2010, 12:53:06 PM »
Along the lines of ToB balancing, what if a wizard had to have X number of lower-level spells in a school to choose higher-level spells of the selfsame school? Require two 1st-level illusion spells before gaining your first 2nd-level illusion spell? It could simply be a "you must have this many spells devoted to the school" before gaining higher-level spells, allowing them to retrain away spell choices from previous levels if they want to branch out into other disciplines.

This would have a weird side effect of making it so that a wizard might actually choose lower-level spells when given access to higher-level spell choices, particularly when combined with the idea that you might remove "independent study" spell learning from wizards.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:54:57 PM by dither »
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McPoyo

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2010, 12:59:09 PM »
You'd have to remove independent training. Which would make them more like sorcerers.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2010, 01:04:53 PM »
Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).

They'd have to multiclass into other schools of magic to get access to other schools (Example: I'm an Evocation Wizard 10/Conjuration Wizard 10. That means I cast a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Evocation spells and as a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Conjuration spells).

And then balancing each school to about Evocation's level so everyone doesn't just pick Conjuration or Transmutation on their Wizard (as is detailed in this thread).

If everyone is cool with spellcasters losing their game breaking versatility, that's how you do it.

If everyone still wants some classes to be vastly more powerful than other classes, nothing needs to be changed.
Maybe if you combined this with ToB-style multiclassing between wizard variants? An evoker 10/conjurer 10 could cast 8th-level evocation and conjuration spells, while an evoker 5/conjurer 4/enchanter 1/illusionist 10 could cast 8th-level illusion spells, 7th-level evocation spells, 6th-level conjuration spells and 5th-level enchantment spells. Caster levels from all variants stack, and they share a single spell progression.

You might want to replace the wizard's bonus feats with minor school-specific benefits (a la Master Specialist) and reshuffle the contents of the schools a little.

PrCs which advance spellcasting have their rates halved, but caster level boosts remain the same (ie. an abjurer 10/incantatrix 10 would be casting as a 15th-level abjurer at CL20). Effectively they're another school in themselves.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 01:14:59 PM by Prime32 »
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Saxony

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2010, 05:56:25 PM »
Also, completely deleting 9th level spells (and 8th) is a quick and tidy fix with little muss and fuss. However, there are plenty of not-overpowered 9th and 8th level spells and lots of overpowered spells that are available earlier. And this is an internet forum where we have the initiative and brain power to find the obscure fixes which work better than quick and tidy fixes.

We shouldn't be asking ourselves "what spells are overpowered?".

The question we should be asking ourselves is "Just how much power do we want the wizard to retain?"

I would like to prevent Joan Q. McWizard's Player from stating "I use my 'I win' button spell". That's not fun for anyone. Either the Wizard is holding back their 'I win' button or everyone else feels like they aren't contributing when Joan Q. McWizard DOES use that spell.

So just getting rid of those broken options entirely would make me happier. I'm okay with Wizards having nice things. But nothing so nice that it amounts to little more than an "I win" button, rather than a tool which might lead to victory. Something which requires a little effort on the wizard's player's part instead of spells which are so effective in so many situations that the idea of tactical choice and forethought is annihilated. If the outcome of "Wizard wins the game" is guaranteed, we have a movie, not a game, gentlewomen and gentlemen. Interactivity and choice are the key words for games.

Another problem is "I waste it with my crossbow again and it dies" or "I full attack it again and it dies". Boring with a capital B. I have no idea how we're going to make combat complicated enough that "I full attack it again" isn't the best answer. Tome of Battle is a good idea for this. Deciding as a group to ban simple beatsticks from your games if "I full attack it again" sounds boring is a good idea.

There is no authority to ban spells from real life play on the internet. That's crazy talk. People are going to play at whatever power level they want to. Your group wants and all Wizard party playing rocket tag? Awesome sauce in my book. Your group wants an all Barbarian party playing hack and slash medieval combat simulator? Just as much awesome sauce in my book. The awesomeness of different power levels in DnD is different groups can find their optimum power level. And they will just house rule broken crap into the stone age or ban it when they don't want it.

The use in pointing out which spells are overpowered and how to limit spellcasters' power in the easiest way possible is that a lot of people want to play in a mixed party of stabby types and spellcasty types and would love an easy way to get those two balanced.

Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).

They'd have to multiclass into other schools of magic to get access to other schools (Example: I'm an Evocation Wizard 10/Conjuration Wizard 10. That means I cast a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Evocation spells and as a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Conjuration spells).

And then balancing each school to about Evocation's level so everyone doesn't just pick Conjuration or Transmutation on their Wizard (as is detailed in this thread).

If everyone is cool with spellcasters losing their game breaking versatility, that's how you do it.

If everyone still wants some classes to be vastly more powerful than other classes, nothing needs to be changed.
Maybe if you combined this with ToB-style multiclassing between wizard variants? An evoker 10/conjurer 10 could cast 8th-level evocation and conjuration spells, while an evoker 5/conjurer 4/enchanter 1/illusionist 10 could cast 8th-level illusion spells, 7th-level evocation spells, 6th-level conjuration spells and 5th-level enchantment spells. Caster levels from all variants stack, and they share a single spell progression.

You might want to replace the wizard's bonus feats with minor school-specific benefits (a la Master Specialist) and reshuffle the contents of the schools a little.

PrCs which advance spellcasting have their rates halved, but caster level boosts remain the same (ie. an abjurer 10/incantatrix 10 would be casting as a 15th-level abjurer at CL20). Effectively they're another school in themselves.

Make the bonus from other school devotee levels 1/8 instead of 1/2 and I'd be happy. There should be some point in multiclassing, but it shouldn't be the obvious answer every single time. As you pointed out...
Quote
an evoker 5/conjurer 4/enchanter 1/illusionist 10 could cast 8th-level illusion spells, 7th-level evocation spells, 6th-level conjuration spells and 5th-level enchantment spells.

Would I take access to all those other schools instead of more 9th level spell slots in one school? Every single time. That's the definition of super-omega imbalanced. Just like one has to be an idiot to not take Natural Spell. There's one option so good that the choosing between them is not really a choice at all. (If your group likes having imbalanced options because they want to play rocket tag, that's totally cool. I'm writing for the people who want Wizards to be about as powerful as Tome of Battle.)

What does a 1/8 multiclassing bonus look like?
Evoker 17/Conjurer 1/Illusionist 1/Transmuter 1 has 9th level Evocation spells and 2nd level Conjuration/Illusion/Transmutation spells.
Alternatively...
Evoker 16/Conjurer 1/Illusionist 1/Transmuter 1/Abjurer 1 has 8th level E spells, 2nd level C/I/T/A spells.

At most we're getting +2 effective levels for 1 level dips (16/8=2, and 16 is the highest multiple of 8 under 20.). That's 2nd level spells for 1 level dips. I think "Multiclass or Singleclass?" a tough choice. That's the definition of balanced - At least the class options are balanced against each other.

Now would I pick an Evoker 17/Conjurer 1/Illusionist 1/Transmuter 1 over a very well built Tome of Battle character? I don't know. I think they're competitive. Am I completely wrong?

If I am right, then with some more tweaking, I think we've come up with simple way to make Wizards Tier 3 for everyone who wants mixed parties of spellcasty types and stabby types.
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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2010, 06:07:57 PM »
My problem w/ limiting wizards to particular schools is often that spells are essentially randomly distributed among the schools, conjuration and healing being only the most well-known example.

I like to create all my spellcasters w/ a theme, which vary in specificity.  If my theme happens to be Conjuration, well, then schools work pretty well.  But if my theme is elemental magic or even something like fire or snakes or wards or runes or what have you, then I'm probably going to be leapfrogging all over the schools. 

One simple thing we use in my group is that we cap all damage on all spells, assuming that if they didn't write one it was just an error (the Epic Level Handbook has some stuff to this effect).  We also use very few CL boosters, usually just magic items, most of which are pretty expensive and only a couple of which stack -- I'm thinking of Rings of Arcane Might and Ioun Stones, we don't use Candles of Invocation or anything like that. 

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2010, 06:09:00 PM »
Also, completely deleting 9th level spells (and 8th) is a quick and tidy fix with little muss and fuss. However, there are plenty of not-overpowered 9th and 8th level spells and lots of overpowered spells that are available earlier. And this is an internet forum where we have the initiative and brain power to find the obscure fixes which work better than quick and tidy fixes.
We could go with:
lv1: 1st-level spells
lv4: 2nd-level spells
lv7: 3rd-level spells
lv10: 4th-level spells
lv13: 5th-level spells
lv16: 6th-level spells
lv19: 7th-level spells

Quote
Would I take access to all those other schools instead of more 9th level spell slots in one school? Every single time. That's the definition of super-omega imbalanced. Just like one has to be an idiot to not take Natural Spell. There's one option so good that the choosing between them is not really a choice at all. (If your group likes having imbalanced options because they want to play rocket tag, that's totally cool. I'm writing for the people who want Wizards to be about as powerful as Tome of Battle.)
That's why I said to remove bonus feats and fold in the features of focused specialist, so that your spells aren't as good if multiclass.

Here's something quick: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8775
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 06:58:43 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2010, 06:34:41 AM »
See here for inspiration in my thread "What spells and abilities radically change how the game is played?"[/url]
I'll see your pimping and raise you better with broken (on the high end) only spells.

I personally favor having spell resistance act as a CL penalty personally, spells reduced to CL 0 are nulled.
interesting. I'm not sure this would adequately nerf (now low CL) higher level spells since many have set effects, not based on CL. On second thought, I dislike. Globe of invulnerability is good enough.

However I tried to make a PC with the max SR. It didn't turn out well as a main line of defence (say, along with improved evasion and a starmantle cloak) because SR is ridiculously underpowered. Should non-metamagic'd spell damage go through SR? Sure, if SR was possible to actually negate all other magic effects. But that will never happen.

Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).
Wow. I've done that. No, really. I even tried to stick to flavor.

SF this does interest me, after you have considered the other available options.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 06:36:24 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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Saxony

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2010, 11:32:51 AM »
Also, completely deleting 9th level spells (and 8th) is a quick and tidy fix with little muss and fuss. However, there are plenty of not-overpowered 9th and 8th level spells and lots of overpowered spells that are available earlier. And this is an internet forum where we have the initiative and brain power to find the obscure fixes which work better than quick and tidy fixes.
We could go with:
lv1: 1st-level spells
lv4: 2nd-level spells
lv7: 3rd-level spells
lv10: 4th-level spells
lv13: 5th-level spells
lv16: 6th-level spells
lv19: 7th-level spells

Yeah, I did that too :D One spell level every three levels, leaving 8th and 9th level spells for epic.

There are some 8th and 9th level spells which aren't "I win" buttons. So I would allow those.

Quote
Quote
Would I take access to all those other schools instead of more 9th level spell slots in one school? Every single time. That's the definition of super-omega imbalanced. Just like one has to be an idiot to not take Natural Spell. There's one option so good that the choosing between them is not really a choice at all. (If your group likes having imbalanced options because they want to play rocket tag, that's totally cool. I'm writing for the people who want Wizards to be about as powerful as Tome of Battle.)
That's why I said to remove bonus feats and fold in the features of focused specialist, so that your spells aren't as good if multiclass.

Here's something quick: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8775
And this is the needed extra something.

Adding on even more single class incentives could probably make the option between "20 levels in one school OR 17 levels in one school then 1 level dips" balanced. I'll try to convince my group to use this :)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 12:12:58 PM by Saxony »
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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2010, 12:23:50 PM »
I personally favor having spell resistance act as a CL penalty personally, spells reduced to CL 0 are nulled.
interesting. I'm not sure this would adequately nerf (now low CL) higher level spells since many have set effects, not based on CL. On second thought, I dislike. Globe of invulnerability is good enough.
Well, it only works reasonably well if the DC is tied to caster level(10+1/2CL+Stat) instead of spell level(this incidentally makes it so that certain 'but more so' spells be obsolete), as well as spell range. The latter means against a target with SR you'd want to be closer than usual so it can connect at all.

None of the solutions really work that well without an overall reimaging of the spell system though. Broken spells remain broken, etc.

I've got a few ideas that involve recreating the whole system from scratch(including, in particular, fire and forget Vancian). But, eh, effort.
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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2010, 06:29:43 PM »
Ditching 8s and 9s, and the really good pre-8s, solves a number of problems ... but not most of them.

Still having just one 8th level spell, as a sort of capstone, kinda works.

There are lots of 5/10 and 6/10 caster PrCs that otherwise are unused.
Forcing a full caster to take one of those, still allows high 7s and limited 8s.

Allowing medium casters like Bard, to take 7/10 and 8/10 caster PrCs ... or even the 5/10 or 6/10s, can work too.
And short casters like Paladin can take the 9/10 and 10/10 caster PrCs (or the lower ones).

I personally nerf it further, and have a max of ONE full caster in a party, and only as a Cohort (and only one cohort).
This brings the full casters down to 6s.


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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2010, 06:01:36 AM »
I look at attempts to balance magic with other classes and think, "I think y'all are trying to hard.  I find one of the main points of magic is that it's more versatile and powerful than other options.  That's its appeal to me."
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2010, 06:31:06 AM »
I look at attempts to balance magic with other classes and think, "I think y'all are trying to hard.  I find one of the main points of magic is that it's more versatile and powerful than other options.  That's its appeal to me."
If you want to be more versatile and powerful, play a higher level character. :p
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RobbyPants

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2010, 04:23:15 PM »
One thing to help balance SoDs against blasting spells is to make the SoDs take an entire round to cast, like Sleep and Summon Monster.  This allows the other side to react to the casting, so it's not a simple "roll a d20 or die sucker!"  Sure, you'll have people flat out run around a corner and break line of effect, but that's cool so long as you allow the caster to abort, save their spell slot, but still spend their action.

Now you have a tactical choice to make whether you spend a slot and action on a SoD or a blasting spell.


The probelm isn't so much the various schools of magic but rather wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and druids are easily able to cherry pick the top tier spells regardless of school.

I think the balanced spellcasters are warmages, dread necros, and beguilers. Their spells lists are more limited and focused and they aren't capable of doing EVERYTHING.
I'm actually in the middle of a project that's converting all casters to spontaneous niche casters.  These niche spell lists go a long way toward removing any nasty spells that shouldn't exist, as well as keeping a single caster to having an answer to any problem.  This also helps in that you don't have to balance each individual school, but rather each spell list.


Well, except for the dread necro having planar binding. 
I'm not so worried about Planar Binding so long as you can't use it to spam SLAs of equal or higher level than the planar binding spell used to call the creature in the first place.
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Nunkuruji

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2010, 04:38:04 PM »
Also, completely deleting 9th level spells (and 8th) is a quick and tidy fix with little muss and fuss. However, there are plenty of not-overpowered 9th and 8th level spells and lots of overpowered spells that are available earlier. And this is an internet forum where we have the initiative and brain power to find the obscure fixes which work better than quick and tidy fixes.
We could go with:
lv1: 1st-level spells
lv4: 2nd-level spells
lv7: 3rd-level spells
lv10: 4th-level spells
lv13: 5th-level spells
lv16: 6th-level spells
lv19: 7th-level spells

Yeah, I did that too :D One spell level every three levels, leaving 8th and 9th level spells for epic.

There are some 8th and 9th level spells which aren't "I win" buttons. So I would allow those.

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Would I take access to all those other schools instead of more 9th level spell slots in one school? Every single time. That's the definition of super-omega imbalanced. Just like one has to be an idiot to not take Natural Spell. There's one option so good that the choosing between them is not really a choice at all. (If your group likes having imbalanced options because they want to play rocket tag, that's totally cool. I'm writing for the people who want Wizards to be about as powerful as Tome of Battle.)
That's why I said to remove bonus feats and fold in the features of focused specialist, so that your spells aren't as good if multiclass.

Here's something quick: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8775
And this is the needed extra something.

Adding on even more single class incentives could probably make the option between "20 levels in one school OR 17 levels in one school then 1 level dips" balanced. I'll try to convince my group to use this :)

I was going to suggest just changing the spell progression to that of the Adept, and granting a BAB/HD boost in place. Higher lvl spells don't exist until epic, and casters just become more like gishes, but with the caster level superiority over Ranger/Paladin/etc casting. Now your world-shattering BBEG Wizard is actually an epic enemy. Unfortunately, this puts a few important recovery spells like restoration pretty far out on progression, where monster types are going to be hitting you with those negative effects much earlier. Just didn't seem clean enough.

Unbeliever

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2010, 05:27:05 PM »
I was going to suggest just changing the spell progression to that of the Adept, and granting a BAB/HD boost in place. Higher lvl spells don't exist until epic, and casters just become more like gishes, but with the caster level superiority over Ranger/Paladin/etc casting. Now your world-shattering BBEG Wizard is actually an epic enemy. Unfortunately, this puts a few important recovery spells like restoration pretty far out on progression, where monster types are going to be hitting you with those negative effects much earlier. Just didn't seem clean enough.

That would be my concern.  Also, as a player I'd be a little miffed that monsters could toss around these so-called banned abilities willy-nilly while I could not (and at much lower level/CR, etc.). 

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2010, 03:55:04 AM »
I'm actually in the middle of a project that's converting all casters to spontaneous niche casters.  These niche spell lists go a long way toward removing any nasty spells that shouldn't exist, as well as keeping a single caster to having an answer to any problem.
If u want every non-broken spell included thats a lot of work. And that's a lot of classes. Its Dangerous To Go Alone Take This. Wow do I have a thread for everything we are talking about here or what?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 04:39:47 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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