Author Topic: Attempting to Rebalance Magic  (Read 10340 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 06:37:45 PM »
SR and Saves, as two separate systems, still feels to me, as a bunch of extra dice rolls.
SR could be treated as just Save bonuses, step 1.
And then be scaled in more reasonably, step 2.
4e ditched SR, and went with the (boring) 50% normalized for Monster defenses, +/- a small annoyance.

4e does nothing helpful to Divinations.
The 4e ritual system allowing non-casters in on the fun, is a good idea imho.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 08:55:54 PM »
Well, except for the dread necro having planar binding. 

As long as you don't house rule in giving them Dimensional Anchor and Magic Circle, they can't use Planar Binding for anything more than getting Animate Dead Zombies and Skeletons until they can make Bone Creatures via Create Undead or Create Greater Undead... and even them DM fiat states what CL you need to get a Bone Creature Efreeti, for example.  So, by RAW DNs actually have a non broken version of Planar Binding.  That is, until you get Awaken Undead...

JaronK

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 09:05:00 PM »
Well, except for the dread necro having planar binding. 

As long as you don't house rule in giving them Dimensional Anchor and Magic Circle, they can't use Planar Binding for anything more than getting Animate Dead Zombies and Skeletons until they can make Bone Creatures via Create Undead or Create Greater Undead... and even them DM fiat states what CL you need to get a Bone Creature Efreeti, for example.  So, by RAW DNs actually have a non broken version of Planar Binding.  That is, until you get Awaken Undead...

JaronK
There are a ton of ways to get those onto your list, though.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2010, 09:09:06 PM »
It's easy to get Awaken Undead (Advanced Learning), but you get that MUCH later than the point where Wizards can abuse Planar Binding.  It's actually a lot harder to get the Magic Circle spells along with Dimensional Anchor... I don't even know of any domains that give those, though I'm sure there's one out there somewhere.

JaronK

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2010, 09:19:05 PM »
It's easy to get Awaken Undead (Advanced Learning), but you get that MUCH later than the point where Wizards can abuse Planar Binding.  It's actually a lot harder to get the Magic Circle spells along with Dimensional Anchor... I don't even know of any domains that give those, though I'm sure there's one out there somewhere.

JaronK
Magic circle shows up on a ton of domains, many of which are given in prcs.

Magic circle Against:Domains/level
Chaos: Law 3, Mechanus 3
Evil: Elysium 3, Exorcism 2, Good 3,
Good: Evil 3, Hades 3
Law:Chaos 3, Limbo 3.

Dimensional anchor shows up on the excellent portal domain, which includes SM1,Dimensional Anchor, Dim Door, Teleport, etherealness, maze and gate
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2010, 09:33:06 PM »
So to get evil Efreetis I think you need Arcane Disciple (Portal) and Arcane Disciple (Elysium, Exorcism, or Good).  You also need to have a decent Wisdom (otherwise a dump stat for DNs) and I think you might have trouble getting Good or Elysium domain on a nuetral/evil character.  Not impossible of course, but I could see some DMs balking against all three.

I think that counts as harder to do.  Not impossible of course (nothing is in this game!) but hard.  Clearly it requires working for it... not really like the Wizard's "oh gee I have these spells, let's break everything."

JaronK

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2010, 09:45:44 PM »
You get good domain at the first level of rainbow servant.  Which is pretty cool and easy to qualify for.

You could also get a magic circle via the axiomatic bloodline feat, which gives Detect chaos, Locate object, Magic circle against chaos, Locate creature, Dismissal, True seeing, Forcecage, Discern location , and Dominate monster.


That is assuming you don't just necrotic cyst them.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2010, 10:13:09 PM »
Ah, right, are Efreetis Chaotic?  I'd forgotten that.  Probably makes it easier.  It's still a lot harder for a DN to get, requiring either multiple feats or a feat and a PrC, plus a decent (though not terribly high) Wisdom score.  That's still much more difficult than the Sorcerer or Wizard version (just take the spells). 

I mean, let's face it, it's easier for every class out there to do it without even using class abilities... just take Leadership.

The point isn't that it's impossible for DNs to pull off (nothing's impossible in this game!), but rather that you have to use very intentional optimization to get there.  I don't think it's right to say DNs are more powerful than Beguilers because they could take two feats to get full use of a broken spell.  After all, Beguilers could take Arcane Disciple too and get plenty of other broken spells just as easily (though it would take them three ADs to get full use of Planar Binding instead of two if they went that route).  So could Warmages.

JaronK

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2010, 08:56:48 AM »
SR and Saves, as two separate systems, still feels to me, as a bunch of extra dice rolls.
SR could be treated as just Save bonuses, step 1.
And then be scaled in more reasonably, step 2.
I'd like to see Spell Resistance function more like sphere of invulnerability, in that spells over a certain level ignore it.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2010, 09:29:10 AM »
SR and Saves, as two separate systems, still feels to me, as a bunch of extra dice rolls.
SR could be treated as just Save bonuses, step 1.
And then be scaled in more reasonably, step 2.
I'd like to see Spell Resistance function more like sphere of invulnerability, in that spells over a certain level ignore it.
I personally favor having spell resistance act as a CL penalty personally, spells reduced to CL 0 are nulled.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bastian

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2010, 12:49:15 PM »
Speaking of CL, remove the shear number of CL boosters. If it's going to be anywhere near fair casters need to be stuck relatively close to their normal CL.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2010, 01:44:07 PM »
Speaking of CL, remove the shear number of CL boosters. If it's going to be anywhere near fair casters need to be stuck relatively close to their normal CL.
Maximum general caster level at ECL X = 2 times the value of a good save for that number of hit dice.

Maximum caster level for a specific spell/school is a couple points above that?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Garryl

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1240
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2010, 07:33:11 PM »
Speaking of CL, remove the shear number of CL boosters. If it's going to be anywhere near fair casters need to be stuck relatively close to their normal CL.
Maximum general caster level at ECL X = 2 times the value of a good save for that number of hit dice.

Maximum caster level for a specific spell/school is a couple points above that?

How about just simplifying that to ECL + 4, which is basically what you have there without the rounding of one-half per level good saves. Alternatively, ECL+3 is almost the same and fits in with the current numbers for skills.
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2010, 07:47:43 PM »
Something I've always found problematic are spells with short term automatically recovered costs but long term benefits.  Examples include Wall of Stone, Fabricate, Planar Binding, Animate Dead, Plague of Undead etc... the ones where you pay little or no long term costs (in the first three, often nothing, in the latter two, a small amount of gold) and in return get long term benefits (building a castle, creating stuff to sell, getting wishes or other services, getting minions).  I feel like spells of this nature shouldn't exist at all... the cost must last as long as the benefit, if not longer.  Most spells after all give a short term benefit (damaging the enemy, giving a boost) with a cost that lasts longer (loss of the spell slot for a day).  Even though some of the long term benefit spells don't really break the game (Wall of Stone) I think it's a good principle to consider.

Some ideas would including making a spell like Fabricate cost more in long term costs (maybe it takes three times the normal amount of raw materials, so in the end the cost is much higher) and making some spells absorb the spell slot (As long as your animate dead minions are still up, you don't get the spell slot back).

Anyway, it's a thought.

JaronK

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2010, 03:07:56 AM »
Well, the issue with that is more of the wealth system being screwed up than the spell though.
If wealth allowed you to be rich, but not powerful, THEN the spells are thematically nifty but not harmful.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2010, 07:55:28 AM »
SR and Saves, as two separate systems, still feels to me, as a bunch of extra dice rolls.
SR could be treated as just Save bonuses, step 1.
And then be scaled in more reasonably, step 2.
I'd like to see Spell Resistance function more like sphere of invulnerability, in that spells over a certain level ignore it.
I personally favor having spell resistance act as a CL penalty personally, spells reduced to CL 0 are nulled.
That works too. It also allows us to keep "CL boosts for the purposes of overcoming spell resistance".
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2010, 08:15:39 AM »
Of course, the chief problem with that approach is that on a creature with strong energy resistances(i.e outsiders), it screws Evocation up worse than the binary option, and save or die/lose effects just don't give a damn. Maybe if base spell DCs were tied to caster level instead(heighten becomes more valuable with this, if you allow it to continue cranking DCs, literally unsavable spell), though evocation is STILL screwed as ever.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2010, 08:23:57 AM »
What if the radius of evo spells scaled by level? If save DCs are based on CL then we can make fireball a level 1 spell without making it easy to resist.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2010, 08:30:01 AM »
Making radius scale by level is incredibly fun. :D
Really gets you your bang for buck.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Saxony

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
  • My avatar is from the anime "Pani Poni Dash!".
Re: Attempting to Rebalance Magic
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2010, 09:06:11 AM »
Forcing spellcasters to only pick spells from one school of magic works well (Example: I picked Evocation and can only ever cast Evocation spells).

They'd have to multiclass into other schools of magic to get access to other schools (Example: I'm an Evocation Wizard 10/Conjuration Wizard 10. That means I cast a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Evocation spells and as a 10th level Wizard that can only learn/prepare Conjuration spells).

And then balancing each school to about Evocation's level so everyone doesn't just pick Conjuration or Transmutation on their Wizard (as is detailed in this thread).

If everyone is cool with spellcasters losing their game breaking versatility, that's how you do it.

If everyone still wants some classes to be vastly more powerful than other classes, nothing needs to be changed.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 09:07:51 AM by Saxony »
If I say something about real world physics, and someone disagrees, assume I am right 90% of the time. This number goes up to 100% if I am late night posting - trust me, my star dust sibs.