Need help with bard-barian? I'm really really lost...

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey there.  I'm trying to help a fellow player with a "Bard-Barbarian" concept, specifically with focusing on *dancing*.  The player wants to play an Aasimar, I mentioned Lesser Aasimar.  I'm thinking Lion Totem Barbarian / Savage Bard with Jack of All Trades and Bardic Knack fits fairly well... but raging prevents, say, dancing, and I would like to thematically combine something *kind of like* a Rage, dancing, and improved melee combat capabilities, with some pretty good spellcasting as well.  I've looked at PrC's, and there is the Warrior Skald, which is a poetry focused fighting bard, there is the Rage Mage, which is a kinda crappy rage focused mage type, back when they thought it was okay for a prestige class for an arcane caster to not advance a caster level sometimes (we might be able to get that houseruled?), there is War Chanter, which is an Oratory focused fighting bard, there are spelldancers, which use dance to improve spellcasting, there are Dervishes, which use dance to improve fighting... but what is there that uses something like and dancing together to improve fighting, and also helps the bard not lose the spellcasting or any of the bardic abilities battle?  Also, what if the character, so far, focused on Dex and Charisma to the exclusion of pretty much all else? Presumably that means that weapon finesse will be there, and there is the idea of snowflake wardance... but how does that actually make DAMAGE keep up??

[weenog]

but raging prevents, say, dancing

If by dancing you mean using bardic music for which you qualify with ranks in the Perform (dance) subskill, you're mistaken.  Only the bardic music abilities that actually require a Perform check (such as countersong and fascinate) are off limits during a rage.

Boosting damage by boosting accuracy is pretty simple.  You either have Power Attack, and turn the extra accuracy into extra damage by way of being able to sacrifice more base attack on it, or you have Dragonfire Inspiration and you connect secondary/tertiary/offhand/etc attacks more often.

[Gavinfoxx]

but raging prevents, say, dancing

If by dancing you mean using bardic music for which you qualify with ranks in the Perform (dance) subskill, you're mistaken.  Only the bardic music abilities that actually require a Perform check (such as countersong and fascinate) are off limits during a rage.

Boosting damage by boosting accuracy is pretty simple.  You either have Power Attack, and turn the extra accuracy into extra damage by way of being able to sacrifice more base attack on it, or you have Dragonfire Inspiration and you connect secondary/tertiary/offhand/etc attacks more often.

Yea, the character didn't choose 13 strength... it is 1 to 1 point buy, 72 points available, nothing under 8 allowed without special dispensation, she chose 10's in everything except cha and dex, where she chose 18... and the character didn't choose any dragon heritage feats... I MIGHT be able to convince her and the DM to move ability scores around... she was thinking she would be good at archery for some reason...  *sighs*... anyone have any idea what prestige class would fit?

Maybe I can convince her and the DM to do 13 str 16 dex 17 cha... maybe go...

I guess 13+4 = 17 = str = not bad to hit... but I don't know at all why she focused so much on dex! Things would be sooo much easier if she just switched dex and strength!

1. Lion Totem Barbarian with Ferocity Variant, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade
2. Savage Bard
3. Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse) Power Attack
4. Savage Bard
5. Savage Bard
6. Savage Bard Snowflake Wardance, and begging the DM to let it work with the courtblade?
rest

[Maat_Mons]

All right, I'm sure we can do something with this.  

The ferocity

[Gavinfoxx]

All right, I'm sure we can do something with this.  

The ferocity

So you would go...

1Lion Totem barbarian with Ferocity (feat: two weapon fighting)
2 Savage Bard
3 Swashbuckler (feat: snowflake wardance)
4 Unarmed Swordsage
5 Savage Bard
6 Savage Bard (feat: shadow blade)
7 Savage Bard
8 Unarmed Swordsage
9 Sublime Chord feat: (ascetic mage)

So fight with... Dual Cutlasses?  Getting Dex to Hit and to Damage, and Charisma to Hit and to AC?

[Solo]

This build needs more intimidating.

[Gavinfoxx]

This build needs more intimidating.

...What? I'm confused...

[weenog]

This build needs more intimidating.

...What? I'm confused...

Bards are potentially badass fear stackers, except they don't have Intimidate on their class skill list, so their max rank cap sucks.  Dipping barbarian changes that.

[BowenSilverclaw]

All right, I'm sure we can do something with this.  

The ferocity

So you would go...

1Lion Totem barbarian with Ferocity (feat: two weapon fighting)
2 Savage Bard
3 Swashbuckler (feat: snowflake wardance)
4 Unarmed Swordsage
5 Savage Bard
6 Savage Bard (feat: shadow blade)
7 Savage Bard
8 Unarmed Swordsage
9 Sublime Chord feat: (ascetic mage)

So fight with... Dual Cutlasses?  Getting Dex to Hit and to Damage, and Charisma to Hit and to AC?

Wouldn't the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy outweigh the benefit of Ferocity?
Just a thought...

[Ivory Knight]

I played the following from level 5 to 9 in a game, that didn't allow Tome of Battle:
Bard 4/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Knight of the Weave 2/Abjurant Champion 2(advancing Bard)

In melee I used Twin Cutlasses with Weapon Finesse, Snowflake Wardance, Deadly Defense(feat from Complete Scoundrel) and Critical Strike(Spell Compendium).
With Gloves of the Balanced Hand(grant Imp. TWF, could have taken the feat anyways) that translates into(my stats at this point Dex 16+4=20, CHA 18+2=20):
AC 23(2 points from Expertise, to activate Deadly defense) or 29(casted Shield)
4 Attacks(assuming +1 magic weapons, Weapon Focus and 16 Str) at +16/+16/+11/+11 for 2d6+4(mainhand, offhand is -2 for 1/2 Str) or 3d6+4(casted Critical Strike).
I retained Inspire Courage, which would translate into 5 rounds of +1 to hit & damage on each attack(can't use 2 bardic music effects at once, so I had to stop singing when I activated Wardance).

I aimed for Swiftblade after gaining Haste at next level, at least 1 progression from AC would go to Knight of the Weave for CL-tricks with Practiced Spellcaster & Martial Arcanist.
There is a Bardic Music Feat somewhere(Chant of the Long Road, maybe?) to get rid of fatigue from wardancing(or raging, in your build).

Bard 4/ Barbarian 1/ Rage Mage 4 or 8 can actually be useful(despite 1/2 progression and 3/4 BaB), for 2 extra rage(1 at 3 and IIRC 5), 1 free quickened spell/rage(gained at 7th level) and a slight DC-Boost on some schools of magic(great for fear).

Too bad, your race isn't Elf or Halfelf, Arcane Archer 2 isn't bad and a Bow of Elvenkind even adjusts it's Str-rating for Rage.

[Maat_Mons]

So you would go...

1Lion Totem barbarian with Ferocity (feat: two weapon fighting)
2 Savage Bard
3 Swashbuckler (feat: snowflake wardance)
4 Unarmed Swordsage
5 Savage Bard
6 Savage Bard (feat: shadow blade)
7 Savage Bard
8 Unarmed Swordsage
9 Sublime Chord feat: (ascetic mage)

So fight with... Dual Cutlasses?  Getting Dex to Hit and to Damage, and Charisma to Hit and to AC?

I was hoping to avoid the swashbuckler level by using feycraft weapons to gain weapon finesse.  That becomes feasible when you can safely spend 3,000 gp. 

You can't take sublime chord before 11th level. 

If you can get the DM to rule cutlasses to be shadow hand weapons, that would be great.  Otherwise, you're stuck with daggers. 

[rydi]

Or short swords.

Also, remember to enhance your singing at some point; song of the heart feat (ECS?), words of creation (if she's good aligned), and appropriate items.

Sublime chord is 11th level entry, and requires 3rd level spellcasting, so you will need either 3 more levels of bard, or perhaps some virtuoso levels.  Or early entry cheese, but that's a waste of feats on this char.

[Gavinfoxx]

So... would this work? EDITED FOR CORRECTNESS!

Lesser Aasimar or Star Elf

1 Lion Totem Barbarian with Ferocity (feat: two weapon fighting)
2 Savage Bard
3 Swashbuckler (feat: Snowflake Wardance)
4 Unarmed Swordsage
5 Savage Bard
6 Savage Bard (feat: Shadow Blade) << Ask GM to let Shadow Blade work with Cutlasses and/or Kukri.
7 Savage Bard
8 Unarmed Swordsage
9 Savage Bard feat: (Feat: Ascetic Mage)
10 Savage Bard
11 Savage Bard
12 Sublime Chord (Feat: Song of the Heart)

[Maat_Mons]

Or short swords.

While short swords work for shadow blade, snowflake wardance requires slashing weapons. 

So... would this work?

Sublime chord requires the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells.  I only see 6 bard levels in that build, and bard's don't gain 3rd level spells until 7th level. 

[rydi]

Could just ditch the second level of swordsage, since this isn't really a wisdom based character anyway.  You'd lose WIS to AC, and another stance, but you'd then be able to plug in a bard level.  If you are picking the better feat btw, words of creation doubles bard bonuses, while SotH just adds +1 (but again, that depends on alignment).

And I forgot short swords were piercing instead of slashing, so daggers it is.

[vilenatas]

Bard7/Spelldancer2/Barb1/SC1/Abjurant Champion5/Unseen Seer4

Unfortunately this is extremely feat intensive, but you can use spelldancer to persist buffs and still grab snowflake wardance.  Also can grab hunter's eye with unseen seer to add sneak attack onto your attacks. 

Another option would be a fear bard that doesn't really fight that much, but takes on more of the shamanistic side of the barbarian.  Something like
Bard4/DreadWitch1/LyricThaumaturge3/Mindbender1/NightmareSpinner1/SublimeChord2/Dreadwitch+4/NightmareSpinner+4.  Should be a fun character to get into that will benefit from high dex(going first) and chr (increased saves).

[Gavinfoxx]

Could just ditch the second level of swordsage, since this isn't really a wisdom based character anyway.  You'd lose WIS to AC, and another stance, but you'd then be able to plug in a bard level.  If you are picking the better feat btw, words of creation doubles bard bonuses, while SotH just adds +1 (but again, that depends on alignment).

And I forgot short swords were piercing instead of slashing, so daggers it is.

Words of Creation can't be done with the character's stats...
Wis to AC is changed to Cha to AC, which the player ABSOLUTELY LOVES. So that is *not* going to happen!

Also, what choices can be made with two levels of Swordsage placed where they are? I don't know much about Maneuvers... or stances... or anything like that... I think it is something to do with initiator level?

And can someone explain precisely why and how you wait a while to take the second level of swordsage in order to get, Uh, I think Assassin's Stance? How exactly does that work, how long do you have to wait? It says Swordsage 3.  Also, what maneuvers would be useful for this character? This character is going to be charge/pouncing and full attacking, most maneuvers are standard actions, right? What would be available? It seems that lots of, uh, 'boosts' would be usable?

[rydi]

bummer on the stats.  maybe later, after some inherent bonuses, WoC will be a viable option.

To determine your initiator level, you add up all your other classes and divide by two rounding down, then add that to the initiator class (swordsage/warblade/crusader).  Prestige classes that advance initiator level work a bit differently in that they add full levels to all initiator classes.  So, an example: Fighter 2/barbarian 2/Warblade 1 is a 3rd level initiator, and gains access to 2nd level maneuvers.  The warblade can pick up any 1st or second level maneuvers, as long as prereqs are met.  Basically, if you view initiators as crappy wizards, and then make up a rule that lets you add half of all your non-wizard levels to your casting progression, you get how initiators work.

The stance thing is a bit weird though.  Basically, due to a wording thing, you can only take a 1st level stance at first level, even if you qualify for a higher level one.  So you have to wait until 2nd level swordsage (when you get another stance) to take Assassin's Stance.

---

So, if you followed all of the above, it should make more sense why it matters what level you take initiator classes at.  The higher you take them, the higher maneuvers you can take with that first level.  Fighter 16/Warblade 1 would actually be a 9th level initiator, with access to 5th level maneuvers.  I'll let you figure out when to take that 2nd swordsage level as a learning exercise, and to ensure that you understand 

As far as the best choices... for this build, it seems like white raven would be better, which requires a dip into crusader or warblade instead of second level SS... But of course that conflicts with the DEX to dmg from shadow hand.  But Song of the White Raven feat is really great for Bard, pair it with lingering song feat for some great twisting action on those songs.  Then WoC later in the build... super-party buffing.  If you are sticking w/S.Sage, Tiger Claw for movement (you won't be high enough level to get the good stuff thoguh) possibly the diamond mind saving throw stuff, island of blades (shadow hand) for your stance... Maybe mountain hammer strike (from stone dragon) just for utility (i dug my way out of a dungeon with it once, 1 strike at a time).

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, you need an initiator level of 5 to choose a level 3 maneuver or stance or whatever. Swordsage gives an initiator level of 1. 6 non initiate class levels give an initiator level of 3. Another swordsage level gives an initiator level of 1. 1+3+1 = 5, so you have to take your second swordsage level at or after hit dice level 8... which gives access to that stance that gives +2d6 sneak attack.  How much do I lose by pretending that the "trade out low maneuvers for high ones" clauses don't exist?

Okayyyy.... sooo many maneuvers... ack... I guess the way of explaining it is, "You have these six abilities you might be able to use once per encounter.  You can access any four of them at any one time, without pausing to switch to a different set of four for five minutes.  Each of the four you have ready can be used once in any encounter. They can be recovered to use again with a full round action, but you totally won't want to do that in combat, because you are going to want to be KILLING BAD GUYS in encounters.  Still, four little mini-spells usable mostly whenever is great! Actually, lots of this stuff is very useful outside of combat, and they give you reusable utility things to do, like "smash through anything" or "teleport", reusable after a little pause."

[rydi]

Well, for you the replacement clauses don't exist, functionally.  You aren't high enough level to use them.  I'm not sure what exactly your question is, so I'm just going to answer what I think your question is...

In the above build SS is there to provide utility maneuvers + Shadow Blade.  That's pretty much it.  You take levels in Sublime chord, and some other full caster classes, to buff up your casting later on, so you won't be getting any more maneuvers.

so...
Savage Bard 1/Barbarian 1 (lion totem w/ferocity)/Savage bard 2/Swordsage 1/Savage Bard 2/Swordsage 1/Savage Bard 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champ 5/full caster 3 (or Jade Phoenix Mage for some last minute maneuvers, but this is suboptimal)

Spelldancer is a good class to take in there, but it is technically 3.0 grandfathered in, and you may not want to resort to persistent spell cheese, so YMMV.

And yes, that's pretty much S.Sage maneuvers in a nutshell, a bunch of nice little mini-spells useable 1/encounter.