[SWSE] Tech Specialist/Ranged attacker character advice

[Tonymitsu]

Sorry in advance if this is the wrong place to ask this but...


So I'm making a Scoundrel 5/Soldier 2/Ace Pilot 1 (ECL 8), heading into Gunslinger and generally focusing on building things and ranged combat

Our GM has given no indication what we are likely to face or even what era we're playing in, just that any Saga Edition sources are available for use, and to pick things that look interesting and he'll build off that.  Also the starting credits are massive so I have a lot of money to play with for customizing weapons, armor, droids and/or a spaceship.
We're using 42 point buy for stats, so I went with

Str 13
Dex 20 = 18 base +2 from level bumps
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 13

Feats are Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Vehicular Combat, Weapon Focus (pistols), Tech Specialist, Friends in Low Places, and Starship Designer.  Also Weapon Prof. (pistols, simple), and Armor Prof. Light (this one is from Soldier 1 and I'm flexible on it)
Talents are Knack, Spacehound, Weapon Specialization (pistols), Keep It Together, and one open Scoundrel talent

and I would like the following skills as trained:
Acrobatics
Gather Information
Initiative
Knowledge (Galactic lore)
Mechanics
Perception
Pilot
Use Computer

Being human and starting as a scoundrel, from that list I can have 7 of them as trained skills
For various other selections, Mechanics, Pilot, and Gather Information are required.

So, in general from that list, what would be the overall likely to be useful choices for the remaining skills (and the open talent)?  Acrobatics seems handy for the tumbling and dropping prone, and balancing, but it seems wrong to have a pilot not trained in Perception.

[bearchucks]

Hey, another SAGA player!

Some thoughts...

Soldier absolutely rocks for the sort of thing you're looking at.  Remember that in SAGA you gain a feat from either the class's list of starting bonus feats or any bonus feat listed for them when multiclassing into it.  That could be skill training if you wished.

Of note: If making a scoundrel, focus on exclusive and semi-exclusive skills.  Acrobatics is only really needed for melee.  Deception/Persuasion/Gather Info, it's you or a party's Noble.  Since you have fewer skills trained than the Noble, let them do that and feel useful in the skills department.  STEALTH is a skill that IS actually useful for a pilot, and it's a scoundrel skill.

Second note: If you go into another class, you gain its class skills.  When you gain int to a new modifier, you gain one new skill of any class skill.  So multiclassing and boosting your int at 4th level (remember, always build characters level by level instead of all at once) you gain access to a skill you might not otherwise.

It looks more like you're playing a character that would be better as a Soldier/Scoundrel.  Or just a Soldier.  I'll admit I like playing soldiers--full attack bonus, lots of proficiencies, best bonus feat list, and a good list of utility skills (including TREAT INJURY, one of the few ways of healing in SAGA there is).  You won't bluff the Empire into thinking you hold the button on the Death Star...but you'll outfly them and just outdo them.

This is your character, though.  Do not let anybody stop you from playing what you want to.  Even me?  ESPECIALLY ME

Okay, my initial thought is Soldier (Vehicular Combat gives you proficiency with pilot-operated weapons so Spacehound is really not necessary and if you REALLY want to be able to run a gun turret instead of flying like you're supposed to be doing, WP: Heavy Weapons gives you that and a bunch of other options and is an available SOLDIER feat, and if you're flying it and shooting anything the weapons are pilot operated--oh, and don't forget, you get a +2 to attack for being the pilot and shooting stuff) with a dip into Noble or Scoundrel.  My inclination is to say Scoundrel for Fool's Luck--force points hardly run out and space is a massive lot of skill checks and it saves you from having to take eleventy-million skill focuses.

For Soldier...Devastating Attack Pistols helps you use the condition track well and Penetrating Attack Heavy Weapons means that the first 10 points of DR (and all ships have DR) is overcome.

I'm probably missing more stuff but I'm curious what your response will be.

[Tonymitsu]

Soldier absolutely rocks for the sort of thing you're looking at.  Remember that in SAGA you gain a feat from either the class's list of starting bonus feats or any bonus feat listed for them when multiclassing into it.  That could be skill training if you wished.

This is awesome.  I never noticed this, and it would certainly change quite a few things.  Where does it tell you that, because I don't think the GM knows this either.

Of note: If making a scoundrel, focus on exclusive and semi-exclusive skills.  Acrobatics is only really needed for melee.  Deception/Persuasion/Gather Info, it's you or a party's Noble.  Since you have fewer skills trained than the Noble, let them do that and feel useful in the skills department.  STEALTH is a skill that IS actually useful for a pilot, and it's a scoundrel skill.

Thanks for this too.  I never even thought about Han's "freighter trick" when considering a pilot.
But it's a shame that doing that requires you to make a Deception check too.
Gather Information is required for the Friends in Low Places feat, which allows you to substitue Gather Information for a Knowledge (bureaucracy) check to acquire a license for an item.  For someone who often requires exotic things to build and tinker with (such as the customized prototype Verpine heavy blaster with an improved power cell) this seemed like a much better choice.

Second note: If you go into another class, you gain its class skills.  When you gain int to a new modifier, you gain one new skill of any class skill.  So multiclassing and boosting your int at 4th level (remember, always build characters level by level instead of all at once) you gain access to a skill you might not otherwise.

True, but I also get one less skill in character creation, not to mention I lose a stat bump to Dexterity.  So for the needs of this character, I'm not sure I see this being a good move.

Okay, my initial thought is Soldier (Vehicular Combat gives you proficiency with pilot-operated weapons so Spacehound is really not necessary and if you REALLY want to be able to run a gun turret instead of flying like you're supposed to be doing, WP: Heavy Weapons gives you that and a bunch of other options and is an available SOLDIER feat, and if you're flying it and shooting anything the weapons are pilot operated--oh, and don't forget, you get a +2 to attack for being the pilot and shooting stuff) with a dip into Noble or Scoundrel.  My inclination is to say Scoundrel for Fool's Luck--force points hardly run out and space is a massive lot of skill checks and it saves you from having to take eleventy-million skill focuses.

For Soldier...Devastating Attack Pistols helps you use the condition track well and Penetrating Attack Heavy Weapons means that the first 10 points of DR (and all ships have DR) is overcome.

Vehicular Combat and Spacehound to share a slight redundancy with proficiency, but Vehicular Combat only applies while I'm the pilot.
Since the character spends almost all of his free time building and modifying things, he considers the ship that the group uses to be "his" (even though it technically or legally isn't).  As such, he'll let someone else fly it long before he'll let them try to repair it.  If repairs are needed, even mid-combat, he'll go do them and let someone else do the flying.
I don't doubt at all that a soldier could be made into a much better pilot than a scoundrel, and while he might wind up being the best pilot of the group, by virtue of being the only one taking pilot-related abilities, it's not really a particular goal that he be the best pilot in the universe.  I would much rather piloting be secondary to building things and ranged combat.
Devastating Attack and Penetrating Attack are definitely things I'll consider for later levels though (except core rulebook says that Penetrating Attack only ignores the first 5 points of DR?)

[bearchucks]

Soldier absolutely rocks for the sort of thing you're looking at.  Remember that in SAGA you gain a feat from either the class's list of starting bonus feats or any bonus feat listed for them when multiclassing into it.  That could be skill training if you wished.

This is awesome.  I never noticed this, and it would certainly change quite a few things.  Where does it tell you that, because I don't think the GM knows this either.

p 54 under feats.  Also of note are that first-level-feats are also available.  So multiclassing into Jedi could get you WP: Lightsaber or Acrobatic Strike.

Of note: If making a scoundrel, focus on exclusive and semi-exclusive skills.  Acrobatics is only really needed for melee.  Deception/Persuasion/Gather Info, it's you or a party's Noble.  Since you have fewer skills trained than the Noble, let them do that and feel useful in the skills department.  STEALTH is a skill that IS actually useful for a pilot, and it's a scoundrel skill.

Thanks for this too.  I never even thought about Han's "freighter trick" when considering a pilot.
But it's a shame that doing that requires you to make a Deception check too.
Gather Information is required for the Friends in Low Places feat, which allows you to substitue Gather Information for a Knowledge (bureaucracy) check to acquire a license for an item.  For someone who often requires exotic things to build and tinker with (such as the customized prototype Verpine heavy blaster with an improved power cell) this seemed like a much better choice.

Connections, a Noble Talent.  May obtain Character level * 1000 credits without having to pay licensing or endure a background check.  Works out like friends in low places, or for that matter you could grab GI with your noble multiclassing feat and Kn Bureaucracy as your 4th-level-int-bump skill providing you were in Noble at least once at or before 4th.  You can run it as the "I've got scummy friends and they sneak me stuff," or however you like.  Prototype tester, survey, whatever.

Stealth is useful in other vehicular things too.  Sneak up on someone from behind an asteroid, from behind a ship, etc.

Second note: If you go into another class, you gain its class skills.  When you gain int to a new modifier, you gain one new skill of any class skill.  So multiclassing and boosting your int at 4th level (remember, always build characters level by level instead of all at once) you gain access to a skill you might not otherwise.

True, but I also get one less skill in character creation, not to mention I lose a stat bump to Dexterity.  So for the needs of this character, I'm not sure I see this being a good move.

BIG DIFFERENCE FOR SAGA: Each occasion at 4th level is +1 to two different stats.  Page 37.  So you lose NOTHING.

Okay, my initial thought is Soldier (Vehicular Combat gives you proficiency with pilot-operated weapons so Spacehound is really not necessary and if you REALLY want to be able to run a gun turret instead of flying like you're supposed to be doing, WP: Heavy Weapons gives you that and a bunch of other options and is an available SOLDIER feat, and if you're flying it and shooting anything the weapons are pilot operated--oh, and don't forget, you get a +2 to attack for being the pilot and shooting stuff) with a dip into Noble or Scoundrel.  My inclination is to say Scoundrel for Fool's Luck--force points hardly run out and space is a massive lot of skill checks and it saves you from having to take eleventy-million skill focuses.

For Soldier...Devastating Attack Pistols helps you use the condition track well and Penetrating Attack Heavy Weapons means that the first 10 points of DR (and all ships have DR) is overcome.

Vehicular Combat and Spacehound to share a slight redundancy with proficiency, but Vehicular Combat only applies while I'm the pilot.
Since the character spends almost all of his free time building and modifying things, he considers the ship that the group uses to be "his" (even though it technically or legally isn't).  As such, he'll let someone else fly it long before he'll let them try to repair it.  If repairs are needed, even mid-combat, he'll go do them and let someone else do the flying.
I don't doubt at all that a soldier could be made into a much better pilot than a scoundrel, and while he might wind up being the best pilot of the group, by virtue of being the only one taking pilot-related abilities, it's not really a particular goal that he be the best pilot in the universe.  I would much rather piloting be secondary to building things and ranged combat.
Devastating Attack and Penetrating Attack are definitely things I'll consider for later levels though (except core rulebook says that Penetrating Attack only ignores the first 5 points of DR?)

Say it with me: WP Heavy Weapons is lots better than Spacehound.

My bad on penetrating.  Still worth it, though.  Devastating is good for ranged combat, especially if you're super-focused on Pistols.  If you're pilot-focused (and spending a level on being an awesome pilot and a feat on it, you are, relatively speaking), you should be the pilot.  You can go back and fix it and have someone else do that, but like Leia in the Death Star or Hoth escapes, they won't be as good as you (probably).

A soldier can be a much better almost-anything than a Scoundrel.  Soldier is a better baseline for ranged combat (Scum and Villainy offers so many things to do with armor in terms of utility that I'd almost recommend taking Armored Defense and wearing an "armor" that basically just has eleven million tools in it.

There are two things Scoundrel does better than a Soldier.  Three, actually.  One, Fool's Luck.  Yes, it is worth its own mention.  Effectively trained in a skill, or effectively focused.  For a force point.  For an entire encounter.  It is just that good.  Where else can you get a +5 competence to all skills for one force point?  Two is party face.  Because Scoundrels get the Charisma skills and Soldiers don't.  (Nobles are better faces than Scoundrels half the time too).
Three is party scout.  For that matter you could make your multiclass trick in Scoundrel to do what you wanted with the stealth and the info and bureau thing.

[Tonymitsu]

Soldier absolutely rocks for the sort of thing you're looking at.  Remember that in SAGA you gain a feat from either the class's list of starting bonus feats or any bonus feat listed for them when multiclassing into it.  That could be skill training if you wished.

This is awesome.  I never noticed this, and it would certainly change quite a few things.  Where does it tell you that, because I don't think the GM knows this either.

p 54 under feats.  Also of note are that first-level-feats are also available.  So multiclassing into Jedi could get you WP: Lightsaber or Acrobatic Strike.

I didn't get that at all from the text there.
It says that when you gain a bonus feat from your new class it must come from the bonus feat list for that class, then gives an example of a multiclass character that hits level 2 soldier and how it must pick a soldier bonus feat.

It also says in two separate places that when you take your first level in the new class you only get 1 starter feat which you choose from the starter feat list for that new class.

[bearchucks]

...crap.  I misread it--but it's not exactly unreasonable.  Otherwise a Soldier with Point Blank Shot GAINS NOTHING by going into Scoundrel in the Feat department, and SAGA has ALWAYS been about Character over Class, about Concept over Class, about the classes being just a collection of abilities.