Leading the party into a trap

[karrella]

I plan to have an NPC double cross the party and lead them into a trap at the main villain's castle with a news that the castle is undefended at the moment. They will undoubtedly go along with it and will not see it coming at all from this NPC. However Im a little worried that the party will feel like the encounter or capture is staged so they cannot win no matter what. Does anyone have an advice on this, or tried a similar thing in their game?

[archangel.arcanis]

First, don't railroad them. If they have a chance to get away let them. Don't force them into a no win situation.
Second, use lots of chumps. Let them kill a lot of the unimportant people so they feel like they are doing something. If they are over powered due to fighting several near equal leveled opponents who had the advantage on them then they would be justified in feeling like it was a setup.

[veekie]

Well, I personally find it best to have multiple redundant traps, with some clues that with a little Spot and a lot of hindsight that would make them smack themselves in the head for missing the trap.
Stuff like an obvious, isolated lure in retrospect, etc.

[PhaedrusXY]

A few years ago, I ran an encounter in which I planned for the PCs to be captured with two different groups. The druid in the first group managed to basically solo the whole thing after all the other PCs were incapacitated.   So I just went with it from there. It wasn't totally critical to the plot that they were captured, and I was able to adapt what I had planned next to deal with this. (I think the druid actually just managed to escape and put up enough of a fight that the NPCs decided he wasn't worth pursuing. I forget.)

When I ran the same encounter with the other group, the PCs were all dropped with in a couple of rounds with few or no NPC casualties. (They didn't have a druid. )

I agree that it is important to make it not feel like a railroad. In my encounter, I had one NPC wizard that was equal leveled (or a bit below... I forget) with the PCs, and he was accompanied by several lower level "mooks" (orc rogue 1/barbarian 1s duel-wielding saps) (the PCs were about level 5-6 IIRC). The mooks by themselves would have not been that dangerous, but in an ambush situation with the wizard using spells to incapacitate and hinder the PCs, they were quite dangerous. The "fluff" on this NPC group was that they were slavers, so it made sense for them to be taking prisoners and using non-lethal tactics instead of trying to kill.

So I'd advise you to:

1) Make it so that they actually have a chance (even if it is a slim one).
2) Make a plan about how to run the rest of the adventure if they actually win.
3) Have a reasonable explanation about why the NPCs would want to use non-lethal methods, instead of just killing them.


Hmm... having a trapped room/hallway/etc where the door closes and a bunch of poison "knockout" gas floods in might be fun. You could also throw in some monsters that are immune to it and that use non-lethal methods, like skeletons equipped with saps and ordered not to kill them, etc. If the treacherous NPC is also knocked out, they PCs might not even know he's a traitor even after they wake up and find themselves captured. He could still be used to further betray them, getting them to confide information in him, etc.

[veekie]

Hmm... having a trapped room/hallway/etc where the door closes and a bunch of poison "knockout" gas floods in might be fun. You could also throw in some monsters that are immune to it and that use non-lethal methods, like skeletons equipped with saps and ordered not to kill them, etc.

Isn't this how the Star Wars prequel started? Jedi in a room with knockout gas and droid enemies.

[karrella]

The awesome part is they have been giving this NPC info almost blindly for some time. Probably 6 or 8 game sessions! They recognized that he was not so much following the party, but just happened to be where ever they went. Finally they talked some info out of him, and he told the party that he was part of a secret organization called the Observers, a secret order of record keepers. One person in the party said "Kinda like on Buffy?" I said yes, they went "oh, ok!" and they went about their business onto the next quest. No questions asked! The party keeps getting ambushed by henchmen, this guy is always where they are watching them and they haven't added it up yet so I figure it must be time for a trap!

a trapped room/hallway/etc where the door closes and a bunch of poison "knockout" gas floods in might be fun.

Yes that's what I was thinking!
The observer will tell them something like "Im going to break my vows of non-interference, now's the time to strike!"
He will send them to meet another 'observer' who will lead them into a secret entrance to the castle, which is supposedly empty except the main villain and a few remaining guards. Then put the trap into motion.

[Nachofan99]

Anytime I use a "trap" or "ambush" situation, I give the party THREE STRIKES.


I feel like if you have this NPC tell the party something like you said:

"This villain is too evil to be allowed to continue doing their dastardly deeds.  I am going to break my vows of non-interference and help you."

This could trigger warning bells.

Here I would give them an appropriate Knowledge check (History, Local) or Bardic Knowledge or whatever, to tell them POTENTIALLY that the members of the order NEVER break their vows; they would rather die.  If they fail the check, you give them disinformation, leading them to complete trust.  Strike one.

When they finally get into the room/corridor/area for the ambush, you give them Spot/Listen checks.  Strike two/three.

At that point, if none of them have made their checks feel free to fucking ambush the shit out of them.  Their characters REALLY DON'T KNOW it's coming.  You gave them every reasonable opportunity to avoid it and they did not.  Tell them not only that they screwed up as players, but their characters in failing their various skill checks also failed in game.

[karrella]

The villain group is basically trying to end the world! They've been questing for epic weapons that they would need to stop the event from happening. This is all fine and cool, except they are overlooking another method, stop the evil group before the event happens.

So my question for you Nachofan99, what would be a fair Knowledge check (History, Local) DC for a lvl 9/10 group?

There are lots of other clues they are never expected to find as well. Things throughout the game, such as anagrams for words as tavern names etc. That's what keeps me entertained as a DM. LOL

The big villain is a sorcerer and he has many people in his employment so I don't think its unfair to have an NPC who isn't giving away this secret. He could be using all kinds of mind control on him. If I gave the party some kind of check without a reason Id be giving it away whether or not they pass right! But I like your idea for giving them chances, that way I can point it out if they happen to fail.

Back to the DC number question, how does everyone keep things scaling upwards as the party levels? Any tricks?

[Nachofan99]

Use the PHB for guidance.

Knowledge Skills pg. 78

DC10=Really Easy Questions
DC15=Basic Questions
DC20=Hard Questions
DC30=Really Hard Questions

You say it's a "Secret Organization" called the Observers.  How secret is it?  If it's just plain ole' secret, DC20.  If it's "super secret" go for DC30.

Technically, you're not supposed to "scale up" the DC on skills *just because* the party has leveled.  For example, if you're trying to Cast Defensively a 1st level spell, you need a DC16 Concentration Check.  Once you hit 12th level you could have 15 Ranks of Concentration - even with a Con mod of +0, and rolling a 1 on your d20 you automatically make the skill check.


As to this:

"If I gave the party some kind of check without a reason I'd be giving it away..."

When I DM, I regularly have members of the party make checks for *absolutely* no reason at all.  It's up to you as a DM to make it uncertain as to why they rolled the dice.  If the *only* time they roll dice is when something is up, you're the one giving that away; not the players.  Also, I find it helpful as a DM to just pick up some dice and roll them all the time for no apparent reason at all.  It keeps my players interested/paying attention and fooled.

You can bet that the second my players lose focus and start talking about a movie they saw last week the first thing I do is roll some dice, look down at them and say something like, "Well THAT'S interesting."

[karrella]

Yup, I dont do it enough. I gotta work on that. I do however roll dice behind the screen for no reason, every once and a while I pretend to number the players. You know look up, silently point at each one and mouth the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, then roll. That makes them really nervous!

[weenog]

Well if you already roll dice behind the screen for no reason, it shouldn't be so difficult to roll a d20 behind the screen for each player who can make a trained check for that Knowledge, apply their modifiers yourself and tell them if they know anything useful, and tell them nothing if they failed the check.

[McPoyo]

I did something similar once, where the guy who gave the party extra money for magic items (60% instead of 50%) was actually working for the BBEG they kept fighting against. Easiest source of information for the BBEG from the party, and easiest way to red-herring the party, ever.

When the party learned what had happened, they were furious and astounded. They still talk about that npc.

[karrella]

So here's what happened...
I gave them the hook from the traitor NPC. They hummed and hawed, called it out as a trap, they even called the NPC out as an impostor! "This doesn't sound like the guy we trust!" They said! The NPC did his best to talk the party into going while I did my best to keep a straight face as a GM! I couldn't believe they thought his story of being an 'Observer' was still truth!

Their decision, "it's likely a trap so lets go!"

They met up with their contact who was a gnome illusionist. He was keeping 2 guards busy with the illusionary hydra, guards whom they know to have good will saves and a decent spell resistance. But didn't notice anything was up. They followed the gnome into the rear cave entrance to this castle built on a rocky island. It was unguarded, they continued. Inside the walls turned to cut stone and there was an archway which they successfully spotted to see an iron sliding door. They entered anyways. Inside they came to a locked door, and the iron sliding door behind them shut, big surprise they yell...  

They now turn their attention to the gnome, who quickly tries to cast blink. They cut him to shreds in a flash, then revive him. Its only at this point that they question him enough to realize hes been dominated and they cast dispel on him. So he wakes up nearly cut to pieces and doesn't know who anyone is locked in a dungeon. So Im cool with that I have a vulnerable NPC who is hysterical following the party that should be fun. Then the room starts filling with water and I was pretty taken off guard with their plan, they summoned a Hound Archeon who they had teleport to the next room to open the door. I'll have to plan for this one in the future better. He dispatched with the guard easily and opened the door. We ended for the night there.

Now I have a whole castle to design, filled by an evil group with world domination plans, lead by 4 evil guys who they know are lvl 16+ (they are 10) and who are very prepared for the PC's with traps galore and every resource they could ever want! It's not unfair of me to pull out grimtooth's traps at this point is it! LOL

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

Hm...did they summon it or call it?

From the SRD, "A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. "

[Solo]

Their decision, "it's likely a trap so lets go!"

You should introduce them to the trap trap.

[karrella]

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities

I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm, well doesn't really change the fact that they are still stuck in the castle. They wont be getting away with that again though!
Short of just saying your spell fizzles, is there a spell I can use to stop them from teleporting out of the castle?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

there's sigils in stronghold builders guidebook that work for that, IIRC.

[McPoyo]

there's a spell that does dimensional anchor on an area. There's also an item that does something similar. I'll look up them both when I get to work.

[karrella]

The_Mad_Linguist : Awesome I have that book, Ill have to give it a careful read through.
McPoyo: Thanks  much apreciated!

I'd really like the Evil Leaders to be unbeatable at this stage, they are so much higher. I think I might even work some kind of time altering device that will advance them closer to 'the big evil day' they've been working towards. Basically both teams are working towards a day when a demon appears, the evil team wishes to unleash it the party wants to banish it. Neither is possible without as many epic weapons as possible, both teams possess 2. These weapons scale up with your level and are rather scary!
So I'm kinda stuck plot wise, I'd like the party to be able to stop the evil group before that happens, but I'd also like there to be an epic fight at the end game.

[McPoyo]

Dimensional Lock, Magic of Faerun page 89, is the area Dimensional Anchor. The item that does a similar effect is called...fuck if I can remember. Maybe someone else can help out. It was an orb that gave a 7 mile radius preventing teleportation out of it, though you could teleport into it just fine. I think it may have been a minor artifact. It was in a forgotten realms book, and was in whichever book detailed several of the artifact elfblades of cormanthor prior to Lost Empires of Faerun. It was printed no later than late 2004, since that's when I saw it, and I am almost 100% certain it was a 3.0 or 2e item.