Author Topic: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?  (Read 4309 times)

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Ivory Knight

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2010, 07:09:53 AM »
If you want CHA to saves, why no Paladin 2?
Devout Performer(Comp. Adv.) can help with this combo, also interesting(if you're in Faerun) might be From Smite to Song & Initiate of Milil(the later requires at least Paladin 4!).

Don't know about Battle Caster, but you could just grab it with a regular feat slot. Mithral Full Plate is nice for Melee Bards, but only provides 3-4 more AC compared to the light armor you can use without blowing a feat on it.

weenog

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2010, 07:15:25 AM »
No paladin 2 because I'm sick and tired of playing good, and the DM doesn't allow the variant alignment paladins.  Having an Intimidate check that gives out minor heart attacks is nice, but sometimes you just want to rip a guy's head off for being stubborn, you know?

I looked into Devoted Performer, it helps with bardic music per day but not with bardic music strength, unfortunately.
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carnivore

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2010, 07:49:47 AM »
heres what i came up with:

using the rules for LA buyoff in UA ... it seems that +3 LA can be bought off at 9, 15, 18 lvls... so for an ECL 10 build it would be :

1/2 Dragon 2/ xxxxxx 8

Human(-2 Str,+2 Cha) + 1/2 Dragon(Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2) .... net result =
+6 Str,+2 Con,+2 Int,+4 Cha

1/2 Dragon Human
Bard 8

Attributes(28pt buy)
20 Str(14 +6 racial)
14 Dex(14)
16 Con(14 +2 racial)
14 Int(12 +2 racial)
12 Wis(12)
20 Cha(14 +4 racial +2 lvl)

Feats:
Versatile Spellcaster(human Bonus)
1st lvl: Knowledge Devotion
3rd lvl: Dragonfire Inspiration
6th lvl: Draconic Aura(Vigor)

this should give nice combat abilities + good boosts to allies .... great skills, good saves ... a versatile character ... you will have a +6 BAB ... thus you will have decent Combat capability

 :D

Rebel7284

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2010, 05:39:10 PM »
Didn't read the whole thread, but have you looked at the +1 LA Draconic Template from Races of the Dragon.  Very similar flavor to half dragon and better stats/LA ratio.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2010, 05:46:48 PM »
Troll-blooded feat from dragon 319 gets you regeneration 1/fire and acid (toughness as a prerequisite).  That lets you survive melee.
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weenog

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2010, 06:42:28 PM »
heres what i came up with:

using the rules for LA buyoff in UA ... it seems that +3 LA can be bought off at 9, 15, 18 lvls... so for an ECL 10 build it would be :

1/2 Dragon 2/ xxxxxx 8

Human(-2 Str,+2 Cha) + 1/2 Dragon(Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2) .... net result =
+6 Str,+2 Con,+2 Int,+4 Cha

1/2 Dragon Human
Bard 8

Attributes(28pt buy)
20 Str(14 +6 racial)
14 Dex(14)
16 Con(14 +2 racial)
14 Int(12 +2 racial)
12 Wis(12)
20 Cha(14 +4 racial +2 lvl)

Feats:
Versatile Spellcaster(human Bonus)
1st lvl: Knowledge Devotion
3rd lvl: Dragonfire Inspiration
6th lvl: Draconic Aura(Vigor)

this should give nice combat abilities + good boosts to allies .... great skills, good saves ... a versatile character ... you will have a +6 BAB ... thus you will have decent Combat capability

 :D
Can't quite do this one.  That's actually a 32 point buy, not a 28.  Humans get +1/-1, not +2/-2 (though I will be trying again to talk the DM into changing the odd-numbered racial adjustments so they benefit everyone and not just those with rolled scores that come out weird).  And he's only got 8d6+24 hp... that's about two or three landed incoming attacks for us, maybe five if we're really lucky and fighting weak monsters for a change.  EDIT:  I should probably add that in our current party configuration I hold the record for most damage taken in a single round without actually dying, at 109.  I probably would've been killed but the ranger/barbarian had just been healed and the dragon spared one attack to knock her back into the negatives so she wouldn't start attacking again. This setup also doesn't have a way to make iterative attacks while leaving all of its natural weapons free to apply more dragonfire inspiration damage.

Knowledge Devotion does seem like it could be helpful for accuracy issues though, and I had forgotten about it.  I will probably wind up working it in sooner or later.

Didn't read the whole thread, but have you looked at the +1 LA Draconic Template from Races of the Dragon.  Very similar flavor to half dragon and better stats/LA ratio.
I've considered it.  The problem is, Dragonfire Inspiration only allows changing the applied energy type if you have Draconic Heritage (another feat I can't afford, and a required dip into sorcerer which isn't helping my fragility issues any, nor can it be bought off like LA can) or are a half-dragon.  Draconic creatures need not apply.  Same reason I'm aiming for Sonic DI instead of Force DI -- DI forbids Force and I'm already facing enough troubles without getting the DM pissed at me for pulling a fast one.

Troll-blooded feat from dragon 319 gets you regeneration 1/fire and acid (toughness as a prerequisite).  That lets you survive melee.
This probably isn't going to fly, we can't use much dragon mag material (probably none, but there's always the odd chance he'll let one or two specific things in if they go along with what he's already doing).  It's certainly worth a check if it's real regeneration instead of fast healing, though.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 07:10:22 PM by weenog »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2010, 06:54:16 PM »
It's real regeneration.  Doesn't do full limbs (have to hold them up to the stump), but still pretty cool.,
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weenog

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2010, 07:02:00 PM »
Well yeah, the main thing with real regeneration imo is you're not actually losing hp, you're just taking nonlethal damage.  You might get knocked out of the fight but you don't die, lose a level, and suck up party resources to come back.  Regrowing parts is just a fringe benefit that isn't needed very often anyway.
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carnivore

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2010, 07:12:06 PM »
Can't quite do this one.  That's actually a 32 point buy, not a 28.  Humans get +1/-1, not +2/-2 (though I will be trying again to talk the DM into changing the odd-numbered racial adjustments so they benefit everyone and not just those with rolled scores that come out weird).  And he's only got 8d6+24 hp... that's about two or three landed incoming attacks for us, maybe five if we're really lucky and fighting weak monsters for a change.  This setup also doesn't have a way to make iterative attacks while leaving all of its natural weapons free to apply more dragonfire inspiration damage.

Knowledge Devotion does seem like it could be helpful for accuracy issues though, and I had forgotten about it.  I will probably wind up working it in sooner or later.

sorry about the Attribute error ... it should be:

Human(-1 Str,+1 Cha) + 1/2 Dragon(Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2) .... net result =
+7 Str,+2 Con,+2 Int,+3 Cha

1/2 Dragon Human
Bard 8

Attributes(28pt buy)
17 Str(10 +7 racial)
14 Dex(14)
16 Con(14 +2 racial)
14 Int(12 +2 racial)
12 Wis(12)
20 Cha(14 +4 racial +2 lvl)

also .... you should not have to worry too much about Hp ... since you really should not be a Frontline Fighter .... although you will be decent enough at Melee combat ... the main thing is you should not get hit too much .... since you will have +4 Natural Armor plus you should also have some good Armor and a Stat boosting Item or two ... if you were equipped like this:

Items: (49000gp)

4000gp +2 Cloak of Cha
4000gp +2 Amulet of Con
4000gp +2 Gloves of Dex
2000gp +1 Ring of Protection
2500gp Ring of Sustenance
2100gp +1 Mithral Chain Shirt
2500gp....Boots of the Winterlands
2000gp...Handy Haversack....very useful for his entire career
900gp ...Hand of the Mage..gives Mage Hand At Will
1205gp +1 Darkwood Buckler
750gp Healing Belt
3000gp Rod of Extend Spell
3360gp Misc Alchemical items and Animals[spoiler]
these items are designed so that you can make lots of Ranged Touch Attacks

200gp......2x War Ponies(trained)...one to be riden, one for carrying supplies...both are combat ready and can fight
150gp......6x Guard Dogs(trained).....trained for various things
800gp Acid flasks(80)
800gp Alchemists fire(40)
150gp Antitoxin(3)
110gp Everburning torch
200gp Holywater(8)
100gp Smoke sticks(5)
600gp Thunderstones(20)
250gp Tanglefoot Bags(5)[/spoiler]

16685gp left to get a weapon or whatever

AC 25 (base 10 +4 Natural Armor + 3 Dex +5 Armor +2 Shield +1 Deflection)

although it is not the best ... it should keep you out of a lot trouble ... and it is easy to boost it even higher .... without sacrificing versatility .... remember you still have Spells

 :D

weenog

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2010, 03:59:54 AM »
That is a nice setup, and I may well use it if it turns out I can't really manage this as a mainly melee bard. Not sure if I'll use it given what I'm considering now, but please enlighten me: where is the material Darkwood from?

I'd still like to beat things up personally if it's reasonably doable.  Though these don't apply in the short term, I've had some ideas regarding improving my defenses and cutting down my setup time in the long run.

Seeker of the Song can get +2 insight to AC while singing and Combine Songs with a mere 2-level dip.  It requires a total waste of a feat with Skill Focus, but obviates the need for Lingering Song, so that's a wash.  Swiftblade wants Dodge and Mobility, which are harder to come up with, but my real bard level would wind up too low to rely on bardic knack, so I've no need to ever bother with Jack of All Trades.  I'd get Haste as a free action by 3rd level, and concealment (and eventually miss chance on incoming targetted spells) every time I cast Haste, among other benefits.

What if I were to de-emphasize my Cha and use spells only for buffs and utility rather than effects that allow saving throws, freeing up more points for physical scores, and did something like this?

[spoiler]Attributes (28 points)
Str 24   (14 +8 racial +2 levels)
Dex 14   (14)
Con 16   (14 +2 racial)
Int 12   (10 +2 racial)
Wis 10   (10)
Cha 16   (14 +2 racial)

Bard 8

Feats:
Versatile Spellcaster (human bonus)
1st   Dodge -- Expeditious Dodge if I can get it, but I'm not counting on it
3rd   Mobility
6th   Dragonfire Inspiration
Song of the Heart (bard bonus, lose suggestion)

I'd mainly sing and let the others in the party handle the bulk of the up-close work, but I could use a longspear to take my iterative attacks from a relatively safe distance, and if something gets too close for comfort, either back off with tumble (and mobility if I boner that up) or drop the spear and use my claw-claw-bite routine on it.[/spoiler]

My inspire courage or dragonfire inspiration boost should be at +5 here (+2 bard 8, +1 badge of valor, +1 song of the heart, +1 inspirational boost).

From there I would progress into bard 8/swiftblade 2/seeker of the song 2/swiftblade +1/bard +1/swiftblade +6.
BAB +16, 5th-level bard spells, CL 19.

[spoiler]Feats:
9th   Skill Focus (perform)
Spring Attack (swiftblade bonus)
12th   Melodic Casting
15th   Practiced Spellcaster (bard)
18th   Knowledge Devotion
Bounding Assault (swiftblade bonus)

I won't get 6th-level spell slots anyway, so Innervated Speed is useless to me. Taking 1 more bard level instead of finishing swiftblade gets my bard music level up to 14 with the vest of legends, just enough to improve inspire courage.

Swiftblade 1 would let me start darting in and out of danger with Spring Attack, and bring my attack bonus, AC, and Ref saves up a little bit.  By bard 8/swiftblade 3/seeker of the song 2 I'd be able to set up Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspire Courage, and Haste in a single round, and get an extra 30% miss chance and +2 AC out of the combo.  At that point I'd probably switch to a one-handed weapon (possibly a sword and mini-board combo as the DM is okay with mithral bucklers) so I could take my iterative-plus-haste attacks plus a claw and a bite when I want to full attack instead of springing in and out.  Over time, the more swiftblade boosts my defenses and my spell availability, the more aggressive I can afford to get, and I don't have to worry so much about being squishy because I can always fall back on playing coy with spring attack/bounding assault if necessary.[/spoiler]

My inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration boost should max out at +6 (maybe +7) by level 14.  I'll have added a vest of legends to bring my effective bard level for music up to 14, and I'm going to try to get away with putting a masterwork natural horn on some sort of wearable harness (wired to a mithral breastplate maybe?) for another +1 there.



What do you think?  Usable, or dead end?
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"That sounds like a victory to me."

McPoyo

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2010, 03:49:30 PM »
Darkwood is in the DMG, next to Mithril and Adamantine.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2010, 07:50:17 PM »
Darkwood is in the DMG, next to Mithril and Adamantine.
Wow, yet another core thing I've never seen used and forgot existed.  I thought it was some fruity eberron elf thing.
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McPoyo

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2010, 08:02:19 PM »
Darkwood is in the DMG, next to Mithril and Adamantine.
Wow, yet another core thing I've never seen used and forgot existed.  I thought it was some fruity eberron elf thing.
That would be Soarwood.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: d6 HD and LA +3, can it survive melee?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2010, 06:27:33 PM »
Ardent with Prac Manifester, can ignore up to 4 LAs or hd levels.
Ur-Priest also come to mind.