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[kevin_video]

You don't realize until you actually play in a high CR level campaign just how quickly these things can get taken out without the proper adjustments.

I need these to be for CRs between 20-30. As well as good feats for them all. We're looking for close to a TPK if at all possible. They're going to be going up against 12 ECL 20 characters that are probably going to be ridiculously optimized.

Concordant Killer (Max Advanced HD at Large) MMIV CR 30???
Angel of Decay (Advanced HD at Large) LM
Whitespawn Hunter Barbarian 17 CR 21 MMIV
Demonflesh Golem (Advanced HD at Huge) FF
Githyanki Soldier Fighter 20 CR 21 MMIV
Mechurion (Max Advanced HD at Huge) MMV
Death Knight Fighter 6/Rogue 4/Blackguard 10 CR 23 MMII (Do they have DR 10/magic???)
Legendary Tiger (Advanced HD at Large) SRD/ELH
Jarilith (Advanced HD) MMII
Hellcat (Advanced HD + Template???) MMI
Thyrm Hound (Advanced HD at Huge + Template???) MMV

Any other suggestions for creatures that are predators that could go up against a party of 20th level characters is appreciated. And I do mean predators. It's humanoid hunters vs monster hunters.

These creatures were either captured and released here, came here of their own free will because they wanted to contest their hunter prowess, or were wished here with a slighted wish (ie corrupt ring of wish spells).

BTW, that's all of the monsters I've got picked out for them. I've got more. It's just that those need advancing, and any bit of help to make the more powerful (especially the Concordant Killer because I'm curious to know if their +2 greatsword advances or not when they do) would be nice.

[Aliment]

Nice to see you Kevin in a thread not about your DM.

Hellcat:
Outsider HD are 1/2 CR and I would just pile all of those on until you 24, giving you +8 CR and a huge creature for a CR 15. That gives you 4 (?) feats, and Improved Natural attack (Claw) is obvious, the other feats are less so.  Following this, I would start placing Swordsage levels on, and pick up Adaptive Style so that you can decently replenish maneuvers.  You want maneuvers that will improve your Grapple abilities damage, you want to be doing as much damage as possible on that Pounce.

Invisible in Light (Ex)
A hellcat is Invisible in any area lit well enough for a human to see. In a darkened area, it shows up as a faintly glowing outline visible up to 30 feet away (60 feet if the viewer has low-light vision). Magical darkness smothers the glow and conceals the outline.

This is just asking for a sudden attack, as you can strike during the brightest time of day.  Easy surprise round if the players don't have True sight on.

Actually looking over it, I don't know what to say, since Lvl 20 characters bring so much to the table that surprising them is really difficult.

[snakeman830]

Adding certian templates can help a lot.  That way, the creatures have abilities that the player's aren't expecting.  It gets even better if you choose templates that don't or barely alter appearance.

[kevin_video]

Actually looking over it, I don't know what to say, since Lvl 20 characters bring so much to the table that surprising them is really difficult.

Yeah that's going to be an issue. The guy who used to run it told me that even though everything he had was CR 30, he couldn't keep them from beating his one-shot. Then again, there were three wizards with Time Stop so that might have helped.

@ snakeman830 -- Yeah I've added a couple of templates (like spellwarped) to a few of the creatures just to make it harder for them. No matter how good you are as a caster, SR 48 is a bit difficult.

[Maat_Mons]

No matter how good you are as a caster, SR 48 is a bit difficult.

Only 48?  A 20th level wizard can have base caster level 20, +1 caster level from an orange ion stone, +1 caster level from a ring of arcane might (Complete Arcane), and +10 to overcome SR from assay resistance (Spell Compendium) for +32 on the check.  On top of that, spell vulnerability (Spell Compendium) decreases a creature's SR by 15 and arcane mastery (Complete Arcane) lets a caster take 10 on the check.  All together, a 20th level wizard can consistently beat SR 57 or lower. 

[kevin_video]

Only 48?  A 20th level wizard can have base caster level 20, +1 caster level from an orange ion stone, +1 caster level from a ring of arcane might (Complete Arcane), and +10 to overcome SR from assay resistance (Spell Compendium) for +32 on the check.  On top of that, spell vulnerability (Spell Compendium) decreases a creature's SR by 15 and arcane mastery (Complete Arcane) lets a caster take 10 on the check.  All together, a 20th level wizard can consistently beat SR 57 or lower. 

Okay... Hmm. Didn't see that one coming. Oh well. Just means that the fight will go a little quicker than expected. Any creature that has weaknesses or vulnerabilities, I've already removed those, so no +50% damage.

[carnivore]

why not use some EPIC monsters?

 

[Maat_Mons]

A good template for the thyrm hound would be psudonatural.  With 37 HD and the psudonatural template, it would have SR 185, 13 attacks per round, at least 999 HP, and at least 2d8+27 damage for its attacks.  There are spells that bypass SR, but this creature can have the kind of saves where he'll only fail on a 1 anyway.  Still, you might want to give it some sort of access to scintillating scales.  You should give it the feats shape soulmeld (sphinx claws) and open least chakra (hands) from Magic of Incarnum so it can full attack on a charge.  Since it will have at least +75 to hit on each attack, you might consider improved combat expertise or power attack. 

[kevin_video]

why not use some EPIC monsters?

 

Oh I am. There's about a half dozen or so of those in there that are anywhere between CR 22 and CR 30, naturally.

A good template for the thyrm hound would be psudonatural.  With 37 HD and the psudonatural template, it would have SR 185, 13 attacks per round, at least 999 HP, and at least 2d8+27 damage for its attacks.  There are spells that bypass SR, but this creature can have the kind of saves where he'll only fail on a 1 anyway.  Still, you might want to give it some sort of access to scintillating scales.  You should give it the feats shape soulmeld (sphinx claws) and open least chakra (hands) from Magic of Incarnum so it can full attack on a charge.  Since it will have at least +75 to hit on each attack, you might consider improved combat expertise or power attack. 

That's nuts. I like it. I'll just give it Pounce though for the full attack on the charge though. Save a feat.

[veekie]

For most such stuff you might want to consider how various spells can affect a particular creature(i.e the Hellcat's invisibility against Purge, True Seeing and See Invisibility) and how the creature can counteract that(misleading divinations pointed it's way, being able to charge a longer distance than See Invisibility's range, easy teleportation etc). Quite a bit of effort to go to though.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You are planning to make some of them ghosts, right?

[kevin_video]

One of my players just told me he's making a half-elf bard 20 for his hunter. He's a bounty hunter that uses diplomacy to make criminals turn themselves in. I'm wondering how that's going to affect everything that he'll face. I know the mindless stuff won't be affected.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Hairy spiders are LA+0 and mindless.  Class level that baby up!

[kevin_video]

Hairy spiders are LA+0 and mindless.  Class level that baby up!

Possibly. I've got a few undead and constructs in there and they're mindless so I might let the "diplomancer" think he's all great, and then have him come across the mindless stuff a little bit afterwards. So how he likes that.

And to answer your previous question (I seem to have missed it), I don't plan on making these guys ghosts. They're either going to survive, or not. They think they're the ones hunting, but in fact they're actually the hunted.

[kevin_video]

I just realized if I make the Concordant Killer CR 30 like I was originally planning on doing, no one would survive. At all. While I'm using the rule of 20d6 instead of instant death, blasphemy at +10 caster levels would still paralyze them for 1d10 minutes, making them very vulnerable. There's nothing to protect them against that, is there? Except spell resistance, but at 40 HD, his CL would be more than enough to get past their SR.

[Brainpiercing]

Epic gets VERY VERY weird, and is usually far off the RNG. So EVERY challenge will have to be hand-tailored vs your players.

One thing about Blasphemy and the others: A simple silence spell will stop the effect. Which means it's a 50:50 chance, either they have it, or they don't.

[kevin_video]

There's a pretty good chance that they won't have it since they'd be all hunters, but then again maybe someone will choose a wizard because of that wizards are everything at 20th level.

But yeah, epic is weird. I just found out how Diplomacy really works, and now I'm concerned about the diplomancer that's in the party. he's using everything possible, and ended up with like +68 to his check.

[ksbsnowowl]

I just realized if I make the Concordant Killer CR 30 like I was originally planning on doing, no one would survive. At all. While I'm using the rule of 20d6 instead of instant death, blasphemy at +10 caster levels would still paralyze them for 1d10 minutes, making them very vulnerable. There's nothing to protect them against that, is there? Except spell resistance, but at 40 HD, his CL would be more than enough to get past their SR.

Just don't advance him quite as far.  Maybe 25 HD.

Also, although it seems fairly intuitive that the Concordant Killer's CL for its spell like abilities is equal to its Hit Dice (both are 19), it never actually says as much.  It is listed as CL 19.  Looking at the entry for spell-like abilities in the SRD, note that it states:

IF no caster level is specified, then it is equal to the creature's HD.  In this case the CL is specified, and is not called out as being tied to the creature's HD.  One could argue that the CL doesn't increase as the Concordant Killer is advanced.

[kevin_video]

No, it doesn't, does it? But then at the same time, it is CL 19 and it does have 19 HD. So one could argue that way too. Hmm.

[carnivore]

try this.... lot of fun:

CR25
Paragon Legendary Tiger
Str 47, Dex 33, Con 39, Int 17, Wis 29, Cha 25
26HD(208+364 Con +312 Paragon)= 884 Hp
150' Speed
AC 54 = (base 10 -1 Size +10 Natural +12 Insight +12 Luck +11 Dex)
Attack bonus = 19+ 25 Luck +18 Str = +63 Attack
Full Attack: 2 Claws@+63, 2d6+38, 1 Bite@+58, 2d8+29
Special:
greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, at 15th caster level.
Scent
Pounce
Imp Grab
Rake 2 Attacks @+63, 2d6+29
Fire and cold resistance 10
Damage reduction 10/epic
Spell resistance 50
Fast healing 20