Author Topic: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)  (Read 12927 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2010, 05:44:18 PM »
But we do all agree the artificer has the most possible persistent spells?

Nope.  An Archivist/Binder/Tainted Sorcerer can persist every spell they have every day, and then extend them.  Effectively, they could have twice as many persisted spells as they have spell slots, though every once in a while a slot will have to be used up to lower taint (so they don't die).

JaronK

jojolagger

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2010, 05:58:13 PM »
But we do all agree the artificer has the most possible persistent spells?

Nope.  An Archivist/Binder/Tainted Sorcerer can persist every spell they have every day, and then extend them.  Effectively, they could have twice as many persisted spells as they have spell slots, though every once in a while a slot will have to be used up to lower taint (so they don't die).

JaronK
Psion 10/Metamind 10 fused with a DMM Cleric, then whoever the hell you want. The persisted spells never finish.
Sorry, didn't see no infinite loop clause at the beginning.
Psion 20 fused with Multiply people, all of whom have multiple sources of turn undead.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 06:01:37 PM by jojolagger »
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Shadowhunter

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2010, 06:06:51 PM »
Speaking of Incantatrix, what are the "tricks" used to achieve the necessary Spellcraft checks?
Apart from Item Familiar, which I'm hesitant to rely upon.
Ranks, "master-worked skill item", synergy. The basics gives 30+INT at lvl 20.
Is there any list around perhaps?

Something tells me Skill Focus just won't cut it :p
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LargePrime

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2010, 06:07:58 PM »
But we do all agree the artificer has the most possible persistent spells?

Nope.  An Archivist/Binder/Tainted Sorcerer can persist every spell they have every day, and then extend them.  Effectively, they could have twice as many persisted spells as they have spell slots, though every once in a while a slot will have to be used up to lower taint (so they don't die).

JaronK
That and I forgot that artificer can only pull off the "Metamagic Spell Completion" 3+Int times a day.

But can you fit in Spellguard 4 to persist personal spells on others?

Azrael

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2010, 07:13:36 PM »
Psion 10/Metamind 10 fused with a DMM Cleric, then whoever the hell you want. The persisted spells never finish.
Sorry, didn't see no infinite loop clause at the beginning.
Psion 20 fused with Multiply people, all of whom have multiple sources of turn undead.

I disagree that its an infinite loop.

Infinite loops increase a number (by one or exponentially) an infinite (or potentially infinite) number of times. The Metamind simply causes durations to never end. I suppose the difference is there's a mathmatical increase in one and not in the other; which I don't consider infinite...just never ending.

jojolagger

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2010, 07:16:13 PM »
But we do all agree the artificer has the most possible persistent spells?

Nope.  An Archivist/Binder/Tainted Sorcerer can persist every spell they have every day, and then extend them.  Effectively, they could have twice as many persisted spells as they have spell slots, though every once in a while a slot will have to be used up to lower taint (so they don't die).

JaronK
Psion 10/Metamind 10 fused with a DMM Cleric, then whoever the hell you want. The persisted spells never finish.
Sorry, didn't see no infinite loop clause at the beginning.
Psion 20 fused with Multiply people, all of whom have multiple sources of turn undead.

I disagree that its an infinite loop.

Infinite loops increase a number (by one or exponentially) an infinite (or potentially infinite) number of times. The Metamind simply causes durations to never end. I suppose the difference is there's a mathmatical increase in one and not in the other; which I don't consider infinite...just never ending.

It repeats endlessly. It increases the duration of all effects by 1 round every round, resulting in a effectively infinite duration. Even if it isn't an infinite loop it is still cheesy.
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Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

stenver

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 04:25:18 PM »
Wow, the Oak tree in Mystra garden is extremely cheesy. No DM in their right mind would never allow that.

Infinite duration vs infinite loop is quite the same thing. But it really doesnt matter, since i also said that the character should be playable. By that, i mean playable from level 1 to 20 without getting smacked to face by DM.

My DMs allow many things and all kinds of tricks, but there is a limit. 20 persistent spells are fine, infinite is not. See what i mean :eh

However. Thank you very much, everyone. I learned a lot of new tricks i am certain to use in future.

jojolagger

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 04:40:05 PM »
Infinite duration vs infinite loop is quite the same thing. But it really doesnt matter, since i also said that the character should be playable. By that, i mean playable from level 1 to 20 without getting smacked to face by DM.
As I said, sorry I missed the must be playable part, Psion 10/Thrallherd 10. Abuse fusion. Playable all the way through, You get minions, you get whatever you want. If the Dm rules Thrallherd doesn't let you pick you thralls just keep killing them until you get what you want.
Countdown to Zombie Apocalypse 97
When you see this, copy it into your sig and -1
:lovefirefox
Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

Lo77o

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 05:33:32 PM »
Wow, the Oak tree in Mystra garden is extremely cheesy. No DM in their right mind would never allow that.

There is no need to cheese it out with acorn of far travel and so on. You could just use a temple to buff up, and then use teleportation magic to get to where you need to go.
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Rymosrac

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 05:55:17 PM »
Besides, that seems to fit perfectly with the intended use of the acorn.
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Saxony

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2010, 06:06:39 PM »
In a similar vein to the Tainted Sorcerer + Binding the Naberius Vestige, there's Metaphysical Spellshaper + Binding the Naberius vestige.

A Metaphysical Spellshaper (Book of Erotic Fantasy) is an arcane or divine spellcasting class which can take ability score damage as the cost for metamagic instead of increasing spell levels. The Naberius vestige heals ability damage.

As a bonus, MPSS can increase a spell's virtual level to a level higher than the MPSS can cast. Say, one wants to cast a fireball metamagicked up to a 9th level spell, but one can only cast 3rd level spells? That's no problem.

So the MPSS's metamagic limit is really as much as their highest ability score. With a 20 Dex, for instance, one could add +19 metamagic. It would take 19 rounds to heal back the ability score damage, but its still +19 metamagic.
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stenver

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2010, 07:35:25 PM »
And after healing up, he can do it all over again? Cool. Unfortunately, its basically infinite... definitely worth considering though.

Buff and teleport is still different from carrying an oak tree with you all the time and assuming its the gods temple. Telepording means at least 2 spells a day spent on it, assuming you can teleport away from where you are.(Finishing a day in a dungeon with huge dimension lock?)

I doubt the Acorn of far travel was meant to be a portable temple. It was meant to give power to tree loving spells. But that, of course, is just my opinion.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2010, 07:48:50 PM »
Otherwise set up a stronghold and have a porta-temple.
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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2010, 08:19:10 PM »
Well, its true that you have to spend spells on traveling, but if you had 2 spells you could cast that would give you "A safe place to sleep, and persist all you buffs for free", i am sure you would cast them.

Besides, if your a cleric of mystra, nothing will be able to stop you from using your magic to leave. If worst comes to worst you will just drop a antimagic field to suppress any magic holding you back. But its a valid point, what if you get caught somewhere without a way to get back to the temple for a while. In that case, you improvise, adjust and go with the flow. You might be a bit weaker for a short while, but you will still be a tier 1 full caster.
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Saxony

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2010, 08:38:21 PM »
And after healing up, he can do it all over again? Cool. Unfortunately, its basically infinite... definitely worth considering though.

There is nothing in the technique which is infinite, a loophole, or an infinite loophole.

It's just really, really good relative to the power level of most games.

You wanted an insane amount of persisted spells. This is an insane amount of persisted spells. It's really powerful.

....That's the point.
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Widow

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2010, 09:42:31 PM »
Speaking of Incantatrix, what are the "tricks" used to achieve the necessary Spellcraft checks?
Apart from Item Familiar, which I'm hesitant to rely upon.
Ranks, "master-worked skill item", synergy. The basics gives 30+INT at lvl 20.
Is there any list around perhaps?

Something tells me Skill Focus just won't cut it :p

Loresong is in Dragon Magazine 335.  It adds a competence bonus of +4 +1/2 levels to any skill. 
Skillful Moment is in Dragon Magazine 350.  It lets you take 20 on your next skill check.

Both of these spells are level 1 Sor/Wiz spells so they should be easy to get ahold of if you can use dragon magazine.

Divine insight can add a +15 insight bonus to a skill check, but it is a level 2 cleric spell.  Maybe a custom item can get you that as well.

The acorn of far travel is a fun spell.  I used it with the alternative environment based favored enemy the ranger can pick up in unearthed arcania.  Never thought to use it with Mystra's church, very wrong.  Now just make a node on the church grounds for more free metamagic.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2010, 10:31:38 PM »
Loresong will work quite nicely, but Skillful Moment allows taking 20 as a standard action.
Unless you have a way to get more than one standard action per turn, it can't be applied for this.
Even if you do, I'm not totally sure either, since that would be taking a standard action in-between the begining and the end of the [Casting Time Requirement] Action.
But Loresong gives quite the neat bonus.
Thank you :)
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
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Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

stenver

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2010, 07:05:25 AM »
And after healing up, he can do it all over again? Cool. Unfortunately, its basically infinite... definitely worth considering though.

There is nothing in the technique which is infinite, a loophole, or an infinite loophole.

It's just really, really good relative to the power level of most games.

You wanted an insane amount of persisted spells. This is an insane amount of persisted spells. It's really powerful.

....That's the point.

Indeed. It is an insane amount of persisted spells. I will try it out someday :)

Saxony

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2010, 01:10:25 PM »
And after healing up, he can do it all over again? Cool. Unfortunately, its basically infinite... definitely worth considering though.

There is nothing in the technique which is infinite, a loophole, or an infinite loophole.

It's just really, really good relative to the power level of most games.

You wanted an insane amount of persisted spells. This is an insane amount of persisted spells. It's really powerful.

....That's the point.

Indeed. It is an insane amount of persisted spells. I will try it out someday :)
Just make sure the group knows before hand :D
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LargePrime

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Re: Getting the most persistent spells(3.5)
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2010, 03:59:45 PM »
But we do all agree the artificer has the most possible persistent spells?

Nope.  An Archivist/Binder/Tainted Sorcerer can persist every spell they have every day, and then extend them.  Effectively, they could have twice as many persisted spells as they have spell slots, though every once in a while a slot will have to be used up to lower taint (so they don't die).

JaronK
I don't know how I forgot this, but the artificers "Metamagic Spell Trigger" does not have a use limit.  So as long as you got a source of Spell Trigger Items, they have persistent spells.  This can easily be more than any casters spells per day, but gets very expensive.
This should make the artificer the king of persistent spells.