Author Topic: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin  (Read 10921 times)

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skydragonknight

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2010, 09:26:47 PM »
split ray. :)
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carnivore

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 09:34:20 PM »
Arcane Thesis(Enervation) + Split ray + Rod of Maximize = 8 negative levels .....  :p

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weenog

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2010, 09:37:58 PM »
Any good reason not to work Prophecy's Shaper in there?
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2010, 09:40:21 PM »
Enervation + Rod of Maximize

You're suggesting dropping 54,000 gp on one item when he only has 88,000 gp in total? 

split ray.

I kind of ninja-ed you by 8 posts on that. 

carnivore

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2010, 09:42:25 PM »
You're suggesting dropping 54,000 gp on one item when he only has 88,000 gp in total? 

thats why i was wondering what type of combat it was?

what are the constraints?

 :D

skydragonknight

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2010, 09:44:23 PM »
split ray.

I kind of ninja-ed you by 8 posts on that.  

Ah, sorry. Thread's pretty active so it's hard to remember what has and hasn't been said. Then consider the Split Ray + Enervation suggestion to have a solid "+1"
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altpersona

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2010, 09:50:27 PM »
i find w/ murder, its best to let someone else get their hands dirty.

minions are your fiends, er um friends.

btw, sorc 12? i thought the op said something about optimized sorc?
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Saeomon

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2010, 10:29:45 PM »
Get him to break his code of conduct. Charm/Dominate an innocent bystander, Polymorph them into something nasty-looking and set 'em loose near the Pally. He kills it, thereby committing an evil act, and boom, bye-bye class features.

weenog

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2010, 10:35:32 PM »
Get him to break his code of conduct. Charm/Dominate an innocent bystander, Polymorph them into something nasty-looking and set 'em loose near the Pally. He kills it, thereby committing an evil act, and boom, bye-bye class features.
Self defense and defense of the defenseless aren't evil.  The act is a tragedy, but not a CoC breaker.
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snakeman830

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2010, 10:37:27 PM »
How about Charm an innocent, then ready an action to Benign Transposition for when he attacks?
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Saeomon

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2010, 10:41:38 PM »
Get him to break his code of conduct. Charm/Dominate an innocent bystander, Polymorph them into something nasty-looking and set 'em loose near the Pally. He kills it, thereby committing an evil act, and boom, bye-bye class features.
Self defense and defense of the defenseless aren't evil.  The act is a tragedy, but not a CoC breaker.

It's a matter of DM interpretation. I'm sure there are better ideas. That was just the best I could come up with in 30 seconds.

weenog

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2010, 10:42:01 PM »
Unless he's offered the opportunity to abort the attack after the switch, and refuses to take that opportunity, it's probably still not an evil act, on his part.  You're essentially using the innocent bystander as a human shield (though he's duped into being willing) and trying not to let the paladin know about it.  If he doesn't know about it, it's an accident, and again, a tragedy.  You on the other hand are deliberately pulling innocent bystanders into the fight to use as hostages, and are probably a valid target for smite evil after a few rounds, if you weren't before. :P
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BruceLeeroy

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2010, 10:43:44 PM »
How about Charm an innocent, then ready an action to Benign Transposition for when he attacks?

Not evil, either. Accident =! evil



i find w/ murder, its best to let someone else get their hands dirty.

minions are your fiends, er um friends.

btw, sorc 12? i thought the op said something about optimized sorc?

It will be. For the moment, the build is nebulous. So, rather than designing a strategy contingent on a specific PrC or feat, assume a rather vanilla set-up.

My current idea is Quickened Kelgore's Grave Mist + Ray of Exhaustion followed by Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement + Maximized or Empowered Moonbolt. A total strength drop of 18-41. That should render anything helpless in two rounds. Minimal saves, maximal Str damage.

Alternately, Split-Ray Enervation 3 rounds consecutively.


I'm suprised no one has latched onto the idea of unusual spell lists. Extra Spell could pick up a spell from any list (including PrC's, domains, etc) in this campaign. That mean lower than usual spell levels are available. Any ideas along that route?

I guess I should have clarified: When I said murder, I meant more of an "overwhelmingly brutal defeat" rather than a coldly calculated ambush. I suppose the ambush is a possible tactic as well, but I would prefer to simply destroy him utterly while appearing bored and unchallenged.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 10:48:13 PM by BruceLeeroy »

Littha

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2010, 10:49:39 PM »
1. Get your hands on a Succubus (Not how you are thinking)
2. Send her to talk to him
3. ???
4. Profit
5. Get your hands on a succubus (Exactly how you were thinking)

snakeman830

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2010, 10:59:15 PM »
All right, then.  Leave for a bit and bind a Succubus.  Convince her to seduce him (shouldn't be hard in this case, any demon would jump at the opportunity of corrupting a paladin).  Ring of Mind Shielding keeps her safe from his annoying Detect Evil.  Introduce them in the next city with the succubus playing the part of a childhood friend of yours.  With any luck, a relationship will begin to develop between them.  After it goes on a bit, take the Ring back and sit back to watch the show.  If he detects that she's evil, then he is suddenly torn.  Betrayed is a definite feeling for him.  He'll then have to choose what he will do.

1. He smites her as his code of conduct demands, then will probably turn on you in a rage.  This is a good thing.  Most likely, your other party members will try to stop him.  He won't be happy, but now there are three different possibilities:
A. He stops.  You get to live, but registering evil (although your other party members won't know).  He loses his Paladinship for willingly associating with an evil character (expressly forbidden by the PHB)
B. He dies to the party.  Problem solved
C. He attacks your party members.  He would lose his Paladinship.


2. He falls to his feelings and doesn't smite her (losing paladinship for letting evil continue)

3. He smites her, but doesn't go further.  At this point, it doesn't matter that he's alive and probably is still a Paladin.  He's been destroyed.

Alternatively, just Teleport with him to the middle of the ocean and teleport back yourself.  Nature will do the rest.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 11:01:25 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Absolon

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2010, 11:03:10 PM »
If it is a DMM-Persist Cleric, then yes, a Greater Dispel Magic would ruin their day.  At that level though, a Spell Theft (Complete Scoundrel) would work even better considering your caster level.  Why just get rid of their buffs, when their buffs could be yours!

If no Death Ward is present on said Cleric, you could start off a salvo of Enervations with whatever metamagic you can afford.  Might I recommend not only using Arcane Thesis but Practical Metamagic with Enervate?  You'd be surprised just how much more dirty an Enervation can get with that (I'm currently playing a wizard incantatrix, so I know exactly what it's like).  He's then just one SoD away from taking a dirt nap.

skydragonknight

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2010, 11:08:56 PM »
As far as spells go, sorc/wiz spells are very ideal for duels where you plan on keeping your distance - you should have all the tools you need to win from that spell list.
Only things that come to mind are lower-leveled versions. Example: Otto's Irresistible Dance is a 6th level bard spell.
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juton

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2010, 11:41:59 PM »
Wall of force can keep him at bay, unless he has dimension door or teleport it gives you time to just drown him in summons. If your enemy doesn't have the travel domain this gets a lot easier, which is likely because I don't recall any NG, LG or LN deities that have it. Solid fog + Blindsight (or touchsight or mindsight or whatever) can lock him down while you destroy him with orb spells.

I think you might want to go after his touch AC as opposed to his saves, as they might be very high, or use spells which still screw an opponent if they succeed. Force spells might be winners because he will likely have some elemental protections.

This gets a whole lot easier if he is cleric4/fighter1/PrC Paladin 7 without the travel domain then if he is cleric 9/PrC Paladin 3 with it, do you know any more about his build?

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2010, 01:18:36 AM »
Telekinesis.  Hit him with 12 colossal crossbow bolts covered in drow poison in his sleep.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Murdering an optimized prestige paladin
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2010, 02:10:13 AM »
Better yet, Silent image over a large pit trap that's in the line of charge. Clerics can't Spider Climb or Fly. It's like shooting fish paladins in a barrel.
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