Author Topic: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question  (Read 10697 times)

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Cuindless

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2010, 03:54:09 PM »
Okay, so the build I'm looking at is as follows:

Dread Necromancer 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9

Feat selection is

1 - Spell Focus (Necromancy)
1 - Spell Focus (Evil)
3 - Iron Will
6 - Arcane Disciple (Death Domain)
9 - Corpsecrafter
12 - Bolster Resistance
15 - Nimble Bones
18 - Tomb Tainted Soul

Obviously the idea behind this character is a specialty undead crafter. This is my first attempt at creating such a nemesis, so there's going to be some serious growing pains. I want to incorporate some of Saxony's ideas into it, but they seem a bit complex for me to follow (though I am trying). Thoughts on this so far from anyone?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 04:00:19 PM by Cuindless »

Cuindless

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 03:57:47 PM »
Or just be a cleric with the Divine Magician ACF, and the Spell and/or Magic domains. Screw Mystic Theurge and True Necro. They're terrible. You can get all the good wiz/sorc spells via domains, items, and ACFs anyway. Heck, you can enter Shadowcraft Mage as a cleric, if you really have a hard-on for wiz/sorc spells. I have played a couple of characters that were "wannabe wizards" and they were quite fun, and loads more effective than some "theurge" piece of crap.

And Ur-Priest is actually inferior to a standard cleric at the upper levels of the game, anyway. They only have an advantage at the mid-upper levels, when they pull ahead with their weird spell progression. Their other advantage is of course being able to tack cleric spellcasting onto some other build, but that's actually not as great as you might think when the other build is also a caster. What you lose may be worth more than what you gain.

So your suggestion is to scrap my original build entirely and play something else? Doesn't that violate Caelic's 10 Commandments?  :P

Seriously, though, I really wanted to make a character whose specialty is crafting custom undead. That's the spirit behind the build. If the classes I'm utilizing or sub-optimal for that stated vision, then by all means let me know what you think. It isn't just about getting clerical and arcane spellcasting at level 9 (though I realize that's what I said in the OP... my mistake). This is more about making a necromantic Frankenstein.

Saxony

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2010, 05:30:41 PM »
Okay, so the build I'm looking at is as follows:

Dread Necromancer 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9

Feat selection is

1 - Spell Focus (Necromancy)
1 - Spell Focus (Evil)
3 - Iron Will
6 - Arcane Disciple (Death Domain)
9 - Corpsecrafter
12 - Bolster Resistance
15 - Nimble Bones
18 - Tomb Tainted Soul

Obviously the idea behind this character is a specialty undead crafter. This is my first attempt at creating such a nemesis, so there's going to be some serious growing pains. I want to incorporate some of Saxony's ideas into it, but they seem a bit complex for me to follow (though I am trying). Thoughts on this so far from anyone?

I am willing to re-explain every thing I did to come up with 1040 HD of controlled undead if you want.

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Bolster Resistance is pretty good if your undead will get turned/rebuked a lot. +4 Turn Resistance is basically immunity to turning/rebuking if the undead and cleric are the same level.

If the undead will never get turned/rebuked, its a waste, of course. So figure out your campaign. If the players or DM like using turn/rebuke undead, its a good buy. If turning/rebuking never comes up, its a waste.

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Firstly, Tomb Tainted Soul should be your first feat if you're getting it. Creatures healed by negative energy (All undead and those with the Tomb Tainted Soul feat) are healed 1 point of HP by a Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch. If a Dread Necromancer has the Tomb Tainted Soul feat, they can heal themselves for 1 point of HP every round. This basically makes them immortal unless outright slain in battle. Combine that with their DR 2 from the Lich Body abilities, and they are actually pretty tenacious spellcasters.

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Nimble Bones isn't super awesome. One has a limited set of feats, so only the super awesome ones should be taken. Of course, if the flavor of Nimble Bones is cool enough, then its awesome level is enough to take as a feat. But I'm of the opinion that there are both more flavorful and more powerful feats out there.

Instead of Nimble Bones, I'd go for Destructive Retribution (Also a Corpse Crafter feat). you should look up the details in Libris Mortis, but it basically says whenever one of your undead die, they explode in a negative energy burst dealing HD/2 d6's of damage to living targets if they fail a reflex save or healing that much to undead targets. So if a skeleton had 14 HD, they'd explode, dealing 7d6 damage to everyone around them.

If you have a horde of undead, when each time one of them dies the others get healed and of course whenever one dies, they deal additional damage to living targets around them.

A super cheesy trick to animate a bunch of bats. They have 1/4 HD each. But they still deal 1d6 damage with Destructive Retribution (since its the minimum). So one takes the Tomb Tainted Soul feat and then whenever they want to get some healing, they just munch on some undead bats to feel better.

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Look up the "Otyugh Hole" in Complete Scoundrel (page 151-152). It costs 3,000 gp and takes a week to use. Using it grants the Iron Will feat for free! That's awesome for a character that wants to go into Ur Priest.

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I've heard that Spell Focus (Evil) and Spell Focus (Necromancy) don't stack when a spell is both an Evil and Necromancy spell. And a lot of Necromancy spells don't give a save so Spell Focus (Necromancy) isn't as good as Spell Focus (Evocation), for example.

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For your Advanced Learning spells at level 4 and level 8, here are the spells I think are the best:

1st/2nd level necromancy spell: Desecration (Players' Hand Book, Cleric 2nd level spell) is of course great for a Dread Necromancer. Ur Priest will eventually gain it as a cleric spell, but if you don't go Ur Priest you will need Desecration somehow. And maybe one doesn't want to wait until Ur Priest to use it. It's a very good spell for those who use Animate Dead.

1st/2nd/3rd/4th level necromancy spell: Burning Blood (Spell Compendium, Sorcerer/Wizard 4th level spell) is a GREAT debuff spell. It lasts for rounds/level and if the target of the spell fails a fortitude save on any of those rounds, they are limited to only a move action (they can't attack or cast a spell because that requires a standard action) and are dealt 1d8 fire damage and 1d8 acid damage. The damage is poor, but the action limiting is awesome for shutting people down. The best thing is, a successful Fortitude Save does NOT end the spell (unlike Hold Person).

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I would stress to you that you should replace the second level of Ur Priest with a level in Contemplative (also in Complete Divine). The second level of Ur Priest just grants Rebuke Undead (which Dread Necromancer already has). So it doesn't give much. Just two more rebuking levels which stack with Dread Necromancer's Rebuking levels. Since you're already taking levels in Mystic Theurge (which doesn't advance Rebuke Undead) you might as well have a Rebuke Undead level of 1 because you will have ZERO chance of affecting undead with HD comparable to your character level and most undead have HD WAY higher than their challenge rating. This means even characters with only Cleric levels have trouble turning/rebuking some undead and you're already very behind them.

So the loss of Rebuke Undead from Ur Priest really isn't a loss.

Contemplative (Complete Divine) gives you a Bonus Domain of your choosing and advanced Ur Priest spellcasting. That's worth a lot for an Ur Priest who has few spells per day. It's effectively 1 more spell in every spell level that the Ur Priest can cast. Of course, they also get the Domain Ability in addition to the extra spells.

So just look up Contemplative in Compete Divine and make sure you qualify after level 10 and see what it adds to your build. (Your build will qualify and it adds a lot :D )

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That 9th level in Mystic Theurge doesn't make any sense. Ur Priest only has 10 levels. So you can't have 2 levels in Ur Priest and 9 levels in Mystic Theurge ( or 1 in Ur Priest, 1 in Contemplative, and 9 in Mystic Theurge) because that adds up to 11. There's no 11th level of Ur Priest to get spells from.

So just take an Arcane Spellcasting class for 2 levels at the end. You still get all 10 levels in Ur Priest, but you can also get some abilities from other Prestige Classes that you wouldn't get if you took the 9th level in Mystic Theurge.

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I like your placement of Arcane Disciple. It's an obvious buy for a Dread Necromancer/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge because you already have a high wisdom for Ur Priest spells. I'd take it at a lower level so you can have access to the spells right away. Taking it at level 18 would make much sense because most of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells would be totally useless and thus its less useful. Taking it at level 1-6ish mean you get to make use of every spell given by the feat.
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Saxony

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2010, 05:38:45 PM »
Or just be a cleric with the Divine Magician ACF, and the Spell and/or Magic domains. Screw Mystic Theurge and True Necro. They're terrible. You can get all the good wiz/sorc spells via domains, items, and ACFs anyway. Heck, you can enter Shadowcraft Mage as a cleric, if you really have a hard-on for wiz/sorc spells. I have played a couple of characters that were "wannabe wizards" and they were quite fun, and loads more effective than some "theurge" piece of crap.

And Ur-Priest is actually inferior to a standard cleric at the upper levels of the game, anyway. They only have an advantage at the mid-upper levels, when they pull ahead with their weird spell progression. Their other advantage is of course being able to tack cleric spellcasting onto some other build, but that's actually not as great as you might think when the other build is also a caster. What you lose may be worth more than what you gain.

So your suggestion is to scrap my original build entirely and play something else? Doesn't that violate Caelic's 10 Commandments?  :P

Seriously, though, I really wanted to make a character whose specialty is crafting custom undead. That's the spirit behind the build. If the classes I'm utilizing or sub-optimal for that stated vision, then by all means let me know what you think. It isn't just about getting clerical and arcane spellcasting at level 9 (though I realize that's what I said in the OP... my mistake). This is more about making a necromantic Frankenstein.
Dread Necromancers are the only class one should go if they want more undead than any other character could possibly have. This is because they get (Charisma modifier)xCL more HD of controllable undead. With 34 Charisma, that outright quadruples the amount of controllable undead. So Dread Necromancer is an obvious choice for you.

Adding on Ur Priest for every Cleric spell in existence on Dread Necromancer is a good idea. The thing is, adding Ur Priest on Wizard isn't super awesome because Wizards can learn any Wizard spell ever. However, Dread Necromancers have a limited spell list. Their options are limited to necromancy stuff basically, which makes them less powerful than straight Clerics or Wizards or Druids. Adding on Ur Priest and then Mystic Theurge is very good for them. In their case, it adds lots of options (every cleric spell). Dread Necromancers only have 8 levels class abilities that are better than what Prestige classes can offer, so they almost always go into Prestige Classes anyway. Might as well get every Cleric spell on a fast spell progression while one is at it :D

And you can use your feats to be a good undead creator. Iron Will can be gotten as a Bonus feat from using the Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel 151-152) and Spell Focus (Evil) can be gotten as a Human Bonus feat.  So every feat is basically still open for those undead creation feats.
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Cuindless

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2010, 06:19:43 PM »
All that awesome stuff you said.

You, Sir (or Madam...), are a truly evil evil man (or woman). Remind me never to play in any of your games, because those tricks are truly sick. I bow before your awesomeness.

I especially like the undead bat trick. We can call that "How to Make Healing Potions (Without Wasting a Feat on Brew Potion...)". That's truly inspired. Thanks for the advice on the build. It really helped me come up with some nasty combos. I guess I didn't make it clear that I'm creating this character as an endgame villain, not as something to play from 1st level, so the timing of feats and spell selection is less important. I was already looking at Burning Blood for the characters Advanced Learning, but since she'll already be getting Desecration I was thinking maybe Backbiter for the other? Any other suggestions?

Now to the nitty gritty. The 9th level of Dread Necromancer seems to be necessary because of the +3 Fort Save requirement for Ur-Priest. Is there an Arcane advancing PrC that has good Fort Saves? It would be nice to do something like DreadNecro8/XArcane2/Ur-Priest1/Contemplative1/MysticTheurge8. Any thoughts on that?

Rebel7284

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2010, 06:22:29 PM »
Look up the spell black sand from Sandstorm and the spell that creates it.  Note that anything killed by black sand permanently becomes black sand.  Fill key areas of your lair with it.  Win.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2010, 06:46:20 PM »
And Ur-Priest is actually inferior to a standard cleric at the upper levels of the game, anyway. They only have an advantage at the mid-upper levels, when they pull ahead with their weird spell progression. Their other advantage is of course being able to tack cleric spellcasting onto some other build, but that's actually not as great as you might think when the other build is also a caster. What you lose may be worth more than what you gain.

Their wonky spell-combining thing lets have stupidly high level spell slots, which is rather breakable
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Saxony

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Re: Ur-Priest Spell Progression Question
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2010, 06:48:16 PM »
All that awesome stuff you said.

You, Sir (or Madam...), are a truly evil evil man (or woman). Remind me never to play in any of your games, because those tricks are truly sick. I bow before your awesomeness.

I especially like the undead bat trick. We can call that "How to Make Healing Potions (Without Wasting a Feat on Brew Potion...)". That's truly inspired. Thanks for the advice on the build. It really helped me come up with some nasty combos. I guess I didn't make it clear that I'm creating this character as an endgame villain, not as something to play from 1st level, so the timing of feats and spell selection is less important. I was already looking at Burning Blood for the characters Advanced Learning, but since she'll already be getting Desecration I was thinking maybe Backbiter for the other? Any other suggestions?

Now to the nitty gritty. The 9th level of Dread Necromancer seems to be necessary because of the +3 Fort Save requirement for Ur-Priest. Is there an Arcane advancing PrC that has good Fort Saves? It would be nice to do something like DreadNecro8/XArcane2/Ur-Priest1/Contemplative1/MysticTheurge8. Any thoughts on that?
No problem!

A lot of that stuff I didn't come up with on my own. Much of my knowledge is just from perusing all the guides online and stuff. I'd check out the handbook section on this website:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0

Especially the Necromancy Handbook by "K" which is very good and talks about pretty much every aspect of it:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0

Note that the Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch already gives infinity negative energy healing at the rate of 1 point per round. Another post just mentioned Black Sand which does 1d4 every round and I'll respond to that below.

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About the 9th level of Dread Necromancer and simply replacing that with a Prestige Class: An Arcane prestige class does indeed exist with good Fort saves. It's called the Mindbender and is in Complete Arcane. Taking one level of it advances spellcasting by a level and gives +2 Fort saves, +0 Reflex saves, and +2 Will Saves, and 100 ft Telepathy. It's a pretty good dip for basically any Arcane spellcaster character who doesn't have anything in particular in mind. And it meets the needs of the build perfectly.

You would only want 1 level in it, however, not 2, since it doesn't advance spellcasting on the second level.

So the build for a player would be:
Dread Necromancer 8/Mind Bender 1/ Ur Priest 1/ Contemplative 2/Mystic Theurge 8/ X Arcane 1

For you,
Dread Necromancer 8/Mind Bender 1/ X Arcane 1/ Ur Priest 1/ Contemplative 2/Mystic Theurge 8
... works just fine since the order of levels doesn't matter like you said.

Look up the spell black sand from Sandstorm and the spell that creates it.  Note that anything killed by black sand permanently becomes black sand.  Fill key areas of your lair with it.  Win.

The Black Sand spell is indeed made of complete and utter win. Ur Priest gets it too, though, just like Desecrate.

Like Rebel7284 said, the spell called "Black Sand" can also make permanent Black Sand if it kills a creature. One can also put the Black sand in your skeleton's boots (or your own :) ) so they permanently gain 1d4 HP every round from the 1d4 negative energy. Just keeping a jar of it would be great. Kill someone with the jar of Black Sand and then bathe in it.

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For an Advanced Learning spell that isn't a cleric spell... The problem is Dread Necromancer already gets a lot of good arcane necromancy spells. And 2nd level or 1st level Necromancy spells usually suck.

Here's an okay AOE long-lasting debuff spell from PHB 2. It's called Kelgore's Grave Mist and is a 2nd level spell. It makes every creature within its AOE fatigued with no save (-2 Strength, -2 Dex, can't charge or run), which basically means -1 accuracy, -1 damage, and -1 AC. It's range is 100 ft + 10' per CL and has a 20 foot radius circle AOE. It also deals 1d6 cold damage per round.

Undead are immune to fatigue and most are also immune to cold. So cast it on a clump of skellies fighting some orcs and it'll work out well. Otherwise this spell is hard to aim while not hitting other party members.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 01:11:33 AM by Saxony »
If I say something about real world physics, and someone disagrees, assume I am right 90% of the time. This number goes up to 100% if I am late night posting - trust me, my star dust sibs.