Omni spellcaster

[Immolo]

Who knows?  The Eurudite is so terribly written that all we can do is guess.  It looks to me like the "unique powers per level per day" means, for example, you are limited to only 11 different powers of any given level each day (at 20th).  Once you've manifested 11 different second-level powers, you can't manifest any other 2nd level powers untilthe next day (but you can remanifest the ones you already have used).

Have you actually read the Erudite? It is as clear as day what they meant. They even gave a handy example just in case the reader was confused.

An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it)

[snakeman830]

All right, question me and prove me right in the same breath.  I'm cool with that.

[Bastian]

All right, question me and prove me right in the same breath.  I'm cool with that.

He was responding to your comment that the Erudite was so poorly written that you couldn't tell what it meant, you could only guess.

[SorO_Lost]

The argument against it is as follows...

The Psion is incapable (other than learning lower level powers in-place of higher level ones; which would be disadvantageous if done more than a few times) of knowing 11 powers per level. Therefore, allowing the Erudite to manifest 11 powers of each level, in addition to having access to theoretically every power in the book makes the Psion irrefutably weaker than the Erudite. The only (small) advantage a straight Psion would have is knowing a specific 9th level discipline power. Thus, it is more likely that 11 unique powers per day refers to only being able to manifest each power the Erudite knows 11 times each day. Thus, if the (20th level) Erudite has manifested crystal shard 11 times that day, he can no longer manifest that power. But can manifest each other power he knows (assuming he has the power points to do so) a total of 11 times each day.

Although I would very much like for this not to be the case, I believe any intelligent DM would choose to interpret it this way.

Any thoughts?

We're talking house rule fixes here right? Psion wins over the Erudite.
The Psion always knows a discipline power of the higher level he can manifest which tend to be better than the generic powers. It is a better higher level spell vs lower level power versatility topic really. Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

By the 17th level the edge remains in favor of the Psion due to obtaining every power ever printed via Psychic Chirurgery while the Erudite knows the same he remains capped at 11 different powers of each level while the Psion has all of them, say 25, different powers of each level.

Spell To Power however completely screws things up and says the Erudite is god.

[woodenbandman]

Wait: So an erudite gets 11 powers PER LEVEL per day? I thought it was only 11 powers TOTAL per day! Holy christballs, batman!

[PhaedrusXY]

Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

It's the other way around, actually. They both get bonus feats, but the Erudite also gets Psicrystal Affinity for free.

I think RAI is 11 unique powers per day period, not per level.

[Bastian]

Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

It's the other way around, actually. They both get bonus feats, but the Erudite also gets Psicrystal Affinity for free.

I think RAI is 11 unique powers per day period, not per level.

No, it definitely was intended to be 11 unique powers of each level per day. There is nothing else that sentence could mean and you have to go out of your way to word it like that anyways.

Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

[PhaedrusXY]

Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

It's the other way around, actually. They both get bonus feats, but the Erudite also gets Psicrystal Affinity for free.

I think RAI is 11 unique powers per day period, not per level.

No it definitely was intended to be 11 unique powers of each level per day.

Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

I know that's what it says, but that's obviously broken as fuck. Why would anyone ever play a psion if that was allowed? That can't be RAI.

[Bastian]

Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

It's the other way around, actually. They both get bonus feats, but the Erudite also gets Psicrystal Affinity for free.

I think RAI is 11 unique powers per day period, not per level.

No it definitely was intended to be 11 unique powers of each level per day.

Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

I know that's what it says, but that's obviously broken as fuck. Why would anyone ever play a psion if that was allowed? That can't be RAI.

The Sarruhk were RAI (though that use for them wasn't) and it still doesn't make them any less stupidly broken.

[snakeman830]

That and the table specifically says "Unique Powers/Day/Level

[Endarire]

My thoughts:

An erudite gets X unique powers per day of any level.  If he manifests force screen and energy missile, there went two of his unique powers.

If a StP Erudite counts spells as powers, then using magic missile counts as a unique power.

[snakeman830]

An erudite gets X unique powers per day of any level.  If he manifests force screen and energy missile, there went two of his unique powers.

Of two different levels.  It's unique powers per day per level.

[SorO_Lost]

Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

It's the other way around, actually. They both get bonus feats, but the Erudite also gets Psicrystal Affinity for free.

I think RAI is 11 unique powers per day period, not per level.

No it definitely was intended to be 11 unique powers of each level per day.

Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

I know that's what it says, but that's obviously broken as fuck. Why would anyone ever play a psion if that was allowed? That can't be RAI.

Why would anyone play a monk when the DMG has a monk's belt?
Why would anyone play a fighter period?
RAI? By RAI kobolds are not true dragons and to parrot back a summery of what's told to me, "no one cares what's RAI".
Of course then I list RAW and they ignore me anyway, different topic though.

I agree on the broken part 137% though.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Nah, RAI they're true dragons, but it's supposed to just be bragging rights.

But this is a topic for another thread.

[Havok4]

But this is a topic for another thread.

Indeed, those debates can go on for pages and pages with no one really getting anything accomplished.

On the erudite issue, Given that their unique powers per day are close to the wilder's powers known I suspect that the per level level wording is a holdover from the dragon magazine version of the erudite that had a wizard like unique powers per day chart, if I remember correctly.

[snakeman830]

Perhaps, but it's repeated in both text and table.  It would certianly be a bit more balanced if that bit was dropped, but it is a part of the RAW.

[Havok4]

Perhaps, but it's repeated in both text and table.  It would certianly be a bit more balanced if that bit was dropped, but it is a part of the RAW.

I know that, I still think it is a holdover, like the psicrystal rules referring to psion or wilder levels rather than psionic class levels.

[Azrael]

I know that's what it says, but that's obviously broken as fuck. Why would anyone ever play a psion if that was allowed? That can't be RAI.

That was my point exactly...but it seems RAW says otherwise.

11 unique powers total per day would be too underpowered, but if you use my fix then they only get to manifest each power they know a maximum of 11 times per day...sure, it means (with pp recharge) a StP Erudite could theoretically manifest every power and arcane spell in existence 11 times each day. However, on the bright side it prevents infinite combos like synchronicity novas and pp recharge; so they technically wouldn't be able to manifest every power in existence because once they run out of pp they are done...I dunno, that seems like a fair fix to me.

[Widow]

The argument against it is as follows...

The Psion is incapable (other than learning lower level powers in-place of higher level ones; which would be disadvantageous if done more than a few times) of knowing 11 powers per level. Therefore, allowing the Erudite to manifest 11 powers of each level, in addition to having access to theoretically every power in the book makes the Psion irrefutably weaker than the Erudite. The only (small) advantage a straight Psion would have is knowing a specific 9th level discipline power. Thus, it is more likely that 11 unique powers per day refers to only being able to manifest each power the Erudite knows 11 times each day. Thus, if the (20th level) Erudite has manifested crystal shard 11 times that day, he can no longer manifest that power. But can manifest each other power he knows (assuming he has the power points to do so) a total of 11 times each day.

Although I would very much like for this not to be the case, I believe any intelligent DM would choose to interpret it this way.

Any thoughts?

We're talking house rule fixes here right? Psion wins over the Erudite.
The Psion always knows a discipline power of the higher level he can manifest which tend to be better than the generic powers. It is a better higher level spell vs lower level power versatility topic really. Don't forget the Psion gets a bonus feat at the first level and a psicrystal while the Erudite don't.

By the 17th level the edge remains in favor of the Psion due to obtaining every power ever printed via Psychic Chirurgery while the Erudite knows the same he remains capped at 11 different powers of each level while the Psion has all of them, say 25, different powers of each level.

Spell To Power however completely screws things up and says the Erudite is god.

But you already got that covered with your Psychic Chirurgery, if the erudite has the spell as a power, than anyone can learn the spell as a power, even if you just use the Extra power feat to get it.  Plus the psion is allowed to take PrC's without lossing his ability to learn powers.  A simple Telepath 10/Thrallherd 10 build allows you to pick up a erudite to abuse and get extra spell-powers from.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The OP cut out but I'll throw up amidst this erudite craziness that IMO getting every spell usually doesn't matter so long as you have the big 3 lists (psion, wizard, cleric), hence my pimping of my triple nines. Though I understand that there are occasional spells really worth casting outside of these lists.