Author Topic: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)  (Read 6963 times)

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Gavinfoxx

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Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« on: June 21, 2010, 03:39:00 AM »
Hi all... I FINALLY found where someone kept the latest upload of crystalkeep's "Base" d20 classes, and it's got lists of all sorts of interesting class options...

One that particularly struck me is the "Sniper" option for the Scout.  It basically gives them some bonus accuracy damage *at any range*, but requires a full round action for a single shot... and I dont think the damage is enough to make up for loss of iterative attacks or multiattack at high levels.  Regardless, the idea is flavorful as all hell, and the idea of a sniper with a Great Crossbow with a Gnome Crossbow Sight just makes me giddy.  Of course, I guess adding "asking the DM nicely" sorts of things, like, "Can the Crossbow Sniper feat work with Great Crossbow? add 1/2 dex damage to my sniper shots?  What about the Targeteer Fighter Variant from Dragon 310?  If you add their ability to the Sniper Shot ability, apparently by 16th level, the threat range on a Keen Great Crossbow with a Sniper Shot would be, uhhh, 13-20? So it's 15-20, adding two?  Would critting a lot be enough to get back in range, damage wise?

Of course since Dragon Magazine is being allowed, that Concealed Ambush feat... Not sure I know enough about that Woodland Archer feat.  As far as Knowledge Devotion, it says that is a Domain feat, can you get that without having the Knowledge Domain as a cleric??

Anyway, I would like people's thoughts!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 04:01:57 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 05:52:23 AM »
Got a link for the rest of us? I've been trying to find that list ever since Crystalkeep took it down (why'd they do that anyway?)

As for your idea, try to stack on as much bonus damage as possible. Knowledge Devotion would work. Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot with Psionic Mediation and the Hustle power would add a little extra oomph as well.
The Splitting enhancement should help as well.
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 06:39:35 AM »
Google "DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base" that will get you to many of the places that have copied the PDF.  And as most as I can tell, to GET knowledge devotion you have to have a domain, right?

I was kind of hoping to stay specifically with sniper themed classes or variants thereof.  And why would Hustle help, it doesnt use the normal Skirmish mechanic..
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 06:42:23 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 06:49:56 AM »
No, you don't need a Domain to pick up a Domain Feat.

As for Hustle, it's for (Greater) Psionic Shot.
Greater Psionic Shot requires you to expend your psionic focus.
Regaining your focus is normally a full-round action.
The Psionic Meditation feat lets you regain focus as a move action.
The Hustle power costs a swift action to manifest and grants a move action (which you can use to regain your focus).

In other words, this way you can apply the bonus damage from Greater Psionic Shot every round.
Ofcourse it is a pretty big investment, but aside from getting a couple of Wands (Hunter's Eye and that Assassin spell that let's you Sneak Attack at any range) and the Targetteer's Vital Aim ability, it's one of the few ways to add bonus damage that I can think of right now.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 06:51:37 AM by BowenSilverclaw »
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 07:59:39 AM »
Aptitude weapons to apply Crossbow Sniper to the Great Crossbow if your DM doesn't let you, anyway.

+1 Aptitude Collision (Force?) Seeking+Bloodseeking, etc., Deep Crystal Great Crossbow.

Ask your DM whether you can apply Improved Skirmish to the sniper damage.

IMHO the damage on this sniper variant is just not enough to be relevant in group combat - because you're usually not working alone. And it doesn't feel like a sniper if things don't fall down. With everything added together you may be able to do a relevant amount of damage:

Vital Aim + Crossbow Sniper (1.5x Dex to damage)
Sniper Shot +4d6 (+6d6 with Improved Skirmish, if applicable)
Psionic Shot +2d8/Greater +4d8
Deep Crystal +2d6
Dissolving Weapon +4d6
Collision +5flat
(3d6 sneak)

Mystic Ranger2/Scout4/Mystic Ranger+7/PsyWar5/Targetteer Fighter2

Sum of: weapon + 1.5xDex +5 +8d6 (physical) +2d8 (physical) + 4d6 (acid), average bonus damage: ca. 18(dex) + 56 + 10.5 sneak = 84.5 + weapon (I forget what the great crossbow does).

Now the stupid thing is: The only thing you've got on every shot which you would NOT get on every shot if you were playing, say, a NORMAL swift hunter is Psionic Shot (and possibly Dissolving weapon, depending on the amount of downtime the DM gives). And that just means the normal swift hunter wins every time. For sniper's shot to become viable the damage dice need to be at least double of what they are now. And even that doesn't get you anywhere near the Level 20 viability number of around 200 damage/round.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 08:20:24 AM »
Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot is +2d6/+4d6, not d8 ;)
Also, IIRC you can only make weapons that are normally made of metal out of Deep Crystal, not sure though.

Also, don't forget a Weapon Crystal of Energy Assault (MIC) :)
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Phoenix00

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 09:19:30 AM »
See if you can get your DM to allow Bloodstorm Blade 2 to work on ranged weapons as well as throw weapons and then take Diamond Nightmare Blade so you can quadruple your damage.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 10:25:30 AM »
Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot is +2d6/+4d6, not d8 ;)
Also, IIRC you can only make weapons that are normally made of metal out of Deep Crystal, not sure though.

Also, don't forget a Weapon Crystal of Energy Assault (MIC) :)
Where did I get the d8s from? Some psi ability gives d8s...

I would argue that a Great Crossbow has a steel bow, so... well, it's up to the DM.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 06:05:56 PM »
There is a variant steel crossbow... somewhere. Dragon magazine I think.  It's simply just needed to figure out a steel variant for the Great Crossbow, then.
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Rymosrac

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 08:49:41 PM »
Only thing the steel ones gave you was the ability to club people with them, iirc.
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 10:44:53 PM »
Only thing the steel ones gave you was the ability to club people with them, iirc.

And, also, maybe gives you the side effect of raising the possible enchantments you can have with it, maybe?
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skydragonknight

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 12:20:07 AM »
Forgive the old school advice, but...Quickened True Strike?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 05:12:57 AM »
Aptitude weapons to apply Crossbow Sniper to the Great Crossbow if your DM doesn't let you, anyway.

+1 Aptitude Collision (Force?) Seeking+Bloodseeking, etc., Deep Crystal Great Crossbow.

Ask your DM whether you can apply Improved Skirmish to the sniper damage.

IMHO the damage on this sniper variant is just not enough to be relevant in group combat - because you're usually not working alone. And it doesn't feel like a sniper if things don't fall down. With everything added together you may be able to do a relevant amount of damage:

Vital Aim + Crossbow Sniper (1.5x Dex to damage)
Sniper Shot +4d6 (+6d6 with Improved Skirmish, if applicable)
Psionic Shot +2d8/Greater +4d8
Deep Crystal +2d6
Dissolving Weapon +4d6
Collision +5flat
(3d6 sneak)

Mystic Ranger2/Scout4/Mystic Ranger+7/PsyWar5/Targetteer Fighter2

Sum of: weapon + 1.5xDex +5 +8d6 (physical) +2d8 (physical) + 4d6 (acid), average bonus damage: ca. 18(dex) + 56 + 10.5 sneak = 84.5 + weapon (I forget what the great crossbow does).

Now the stupid thing is: The only thing you've got on every shot which you would NOT get on every shot if you were playing, say, a NORMAL swift hunter is Psionic Shot (and possibly Dissolving weapon, depending on the amount of downtime the DM gives). And that just means the normal swift hunter wins every time. For sniper's shot to become viable the damage dice need to be at least double of what they are now. And even that doesn't get you anywhere near the Level 20 viability number of around 200 damage/round.

How exactly are you getting +4d6 sniper shot without 13 levels of scout? Swift Hunter? Can you help me with a bit of a breakdown?  The Dragon magazine seems to assume that you don't really need much more damage than 'normal' in order to be balanced, but I think their math is wrong, since you are doing all these CRAZY things to get extra damage.  If they had a damage progression as a Rogue's sneak attack does, would that fix it? What do you think it would take in order to not have to jump through all those hoops? And all of those options can be done once per round, with a full round action, right? Because the idea of a Sniper Shot is that it takes a *full round action*..
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 05:19:51 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 07:42:17 AM »
Well, I was making the (slight, IMHO) stretch that since Sniper replaces skirmish that I could apply Swift Hunter to the Sniper Progression.

And YES, I'm jumping through a lot of hoops to max the damage on a single shot, but a lot of them I would still do for a normal, Rapidshot swift hunter who uses some trick to move with a Full-attack. Wich just means that you're sacrificing at least 150-200 points of damage for the single-shot mechanism.

So... I guess it depends on your group. If your group is generally VERY unoptimised, then you might just play it like that. But if not, then you're probably going to feel underwhelming.

Now, my suggestion for a sniper is something entirely different: Arcane gish with a two-level dip into arcane archer. Instead of dealing massive physical damage, you basically shoot bombs into the melee.

Build suggestion:
(Any) Elf Warblade1 or Fighter1/Martial Focused Conjurer 6/Spellsword1/Abcha5/AA2/EK rest.

You basically use Imbue Arrow to lob damage (or other) spells at people at stupid ranges, and you're still basically a Wizard, which means you have backup options.

You can also do it as a sorceror, with the possible benefit of the weird sorc spells.

The other option is Spellwarp Sniper, but it's rather close range.

And the final option is a fairly tricked out Warlock. As a suggestion which I have not checked vs. legality:

WarlockX/Mystic RangerY/HellFire Warlock3/Eldritch Disciple10

The idea is basically to use the Ranger spells that grant sneak-attack with the EB.

I also tried to homebrew a sniper once, it sort of not got discussed further, well, it's here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4606.msg153566#msg153566 ; There are some things I don't like about it in retrospect. Like the once-every-other-round restriction.


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Re: Req: Optimizing a Sniper (Scout Variant, Dragon 346)
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 08:07:07 AM »
Only thing the steel ones gave you was the ability to club people with them, iirc.
Make a "steel" bow out of crystal (or crysteel) and go psionic weapon master.
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