Author Topic: Are there any Druid-killer builds?  (Read 5916 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Amechra

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2328
  • Thread Necromancy a Specialty
Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« on: June 12, 2010, 04:47:21 AM »
I.e., are there any builds that are specifically geared towards fighting a druid, naked if needs be.













Not that kind of fighting, gorramit!
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 05:39:07 AM »
Druid 20. With Natural Spell.

The only druid build that's worse is druid 10 with Natural Spell and planar shepherd 10.

Also, cleric, wizard, artificer, archivist, and spell-to-power erudite.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 06:00:44 AM »
"If at first you don't succeed, gain another level."
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2010, 06:03:20 AM »
The Druid is an interesting beast. Between Wild Shape, Animal Companion, and his particular brand of spellcasting, he has a huge amount of sheer firepower, but unlike the Cleric and especially the Wizard, he doesn't generally have as much combat versatility. For example, an ubercharger with  an AMF on him is a much bigger problem for a Druid than a Wizard. The Druid's best tools (that is, the ones that give him the versatility he's missing) are Craft Contingent Spell and Shapechange. Shapechange can get him Wizard casting, but by the time you're fighting a Druid who uses Shapechange for Wizard casting, you're not really fighting a Druid anymore.

Part of the problem with Tier 1 classes is that once they're highly optimized, they aren't tactically interesting anymore. In low-optimization D&D, the classes have their strengths and their weaknesses; a Wizard is highly fragile up close and relies on others to defend him, while the fighter has relatively little ranged combat ability, and has trouble with high-AC opponents. In high-optimization D&D, the fighter still has trouble at range, but the Wizard is effectively invincible at all ranges and is simultaneously almost arbitrarily dangerous. There's not any maneuvering you can pull off, or any secret you can learn, that gives you an edge on him. He just wins. All the time. The Druid, being a Tier 1 class, is the same way. Once you get into Craft Contingent Spell and Shapechange shenanigans, he stops having weaknesses like 'AMFs shut him down' and 'he lacks good divinations'.

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2010, 11:03:44 AM »
Erm, I think they should be geared towards fighting against the druid?

First, Arcane Turmoil him to remove his shapechange spell. Then attempt to battlefield control him with a wizard would probably be my best bet.

But it really depends on a lot of things. I think the reason most people think the druid is crazy good is because he is so SAD, He essentially only needs wisdom and Con.
And he is very versatile at the lower levels, especially 5-9 he can do almost anything better than any other class, between wild shape, summon natures ally and an animal companion, he really has a lot of power, and his companion usually does pretty good for the level.

On the mid-high levels 10-16 the druid slows down a little (unless he is a planar shepherd) and doesn't get all the crazy abilities. However, on level 17 he gets shapechange, meaning he can essentially change into anything he wants to. And therefore he gets all the class features he wants.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

jolt

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2010, 12:42:30 PM »
The best way to beat a druid is to convince the DM that he has to ban several druid powerhouses like planar shepherd, natural spell, wild shape amulet, venomfire, bite of the - spells, dragon wild shape, blinding spittle, enhance wild shape, assume supernatural ability .... you get the point.

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2010, 02:40:13 PM »
I.e., are there any builds that are specifically geared towards fighting a druid, naked if needs be.


Sorcerer.

See guide for details.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 06:01:24 PM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Dragonamedrake

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 05:59:16 PM »
The best way to beat a druid is to convince the DM that he has to ban several druid powerhouses like planar shepherd, natural spell, wild shape amulet, venomfire, bite of the - spells, dragon wild shape, blinding spittle, enhance wild shape, assume supernatural ability .... you get the point.

Thats not beating him... thats nerfing him. That just pisses off the player. The original poster is either

A. Trying to beat a NPC DM pet Druid so that wont work or
B. Trying to one up another Druid Player which would just cause that player to be unhappy with the game.


I.e., are there any builds that are specifically geared towards fighting a druid, naked if needs be.


What type of Druid is he? Thats the beauty of a Druid, in that they can go alot of different routes. Is he a Summoner, a Shifter Melee type, caster, ect? If he is a Planar Shepard you can pack it up and call it a day unless your a Tier 1. Otherwise a Tier 2 that just focused on killing the druid could pull it off. So let us know what he does and if this is another player or a DM NPC.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2010, 07:46:10 PM »
Anti-magic ray

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2010, 08:05:21 PM »
Doesn't that offer a will save?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 12:18:29 AM »
Liberal use of Diplomacy and Bluff to have the Druid kill himself by taking on Dispater in Dis or similar?

Perhaps someone with great divination skills and some teleportation, to pop onto the scene after the druid have spent his spells and wild shapes for the day?

Other than that:
Nothing short of a full caster/manifester.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

fuinjutsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2010, 01:45:59 AM »
If the druid hasn't gone out of his way to get followers/pets of his own, buff up your Handle Animal and Diplomacy and go after him with an army.  When you have a few thousand attackers, you're bound to get some natural 20's.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2010, 01:57:17 AM »
If the druid hasn't gone out of his way to get followers/pets of his own, buff up your Handle Animal and Diplomacy and go after him with an army.  When you have a few thousand attackers, you're bound to get some natural 20's.

If I remember correctly druid gets a lot of spells capable of killing massed infantry swiftly, like storm of vengeance which has a 360ft radius...

or even shadow landscape could be a nightmare for low level companions to get through.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 01:58:59 AM by Littha »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2010, 03:01:04 AM »
Yeah, any builds that require dark sun specific setting material.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

cru

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 613
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2010, 03:08:05 AM »
Druids usually have low initiative and low reflex save. So, by optimizing initiative and targeting reflex save, I guess it should be possible to land a save or die.

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2010, 03:09:39 AM »
Druids usually have low initiative and low reflex save. So, by optimizing initiative and targeting reflex save, I guess it should be possible to land a save or die.

Depends what he is wildshaped into

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2010, 03:10:43 AM »
Druids aren't as good as dealing with incorporeal opponents and undead as clerics or wizards are.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2010, 03:10:55 AM »
A few options.....

- A Core Druid has high magic offence and high physical offence, but poor physical defences.  His AC in wildshape will likely be in the gutter.  Against a Core Melee Druid then, your basic Power Attacker does pretty well.  It's not hard to take him out in one turn.

- A Non-Core Druid has more options to boost his AC.  Still, pause a moment to see if that druidy-bear monstrosity is wearing armor.  If not, again, Ubercharger can actually do really well.

- An AMF will really ruin a Druid's day.  They block spells, summons, Wildshape, and items.  In an AMF, a Druid is pretty much toast.  That goes for most casters, of course, but since the Druid is often in melee it's easier to implement.  A beatstick with an AMF will make a Druid cry.

- If the Druid is using his Wildshape for mobility and relying on spells for offence, you're in much more trouble.  He can mob you with summons, and has some pretty solid blasts and debuffs as well.  Beware Fire Seeds - at level 20, they can do 8d8+160 damage (ref half) with a single casting of the spell.  I know it's "only" direct damage, and "only" fire type, but I find few PCs resist fire and that's enough to outright kill a lot of people, or put them close enough that a lesser direct damage spell can finish them off.  Really though, just treat him like a Blaster/Controller mage.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2010, 03:15:13 AM »
If the druid hasn't gone out of his way to get followers/pets of his own, buff up your Handle Animal and Diplomacy and go after him with an army.  When you have a few thousand attackers, you're bound to get some natural 20's.

If I remember correctly druid gets a lot of spells capable of killing massed infantry swiftly, like storm of vengeance which has a 360ft radius...

or even shadow landscape could be a nightmare for low level companions to get through.

Hell, a Druid under Storm Rage with Control Winds is slaughtering stuff easily.
Just amp up the winds to the most destructive speed and let loose the whirlwind of death.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

cru

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 613
    • Email
Re: Are there any Druid-killer builds?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2010, 07:08:33 AM »
@sonofzeal concerning AMF:
druid is doing much better than cleric or wizard in antimagic field - animal companion can still rip asses