Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?

[Dragonamedrake]

Again everyone is using the same excuses.... Dipping doesnt balance anything. Casters dip too. And character concepts dont require 12 classes. You say there are concepts on this board that do... prove it... give me some examples and I have no dout that I can make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes. It might not have the exact same power or abilities but thats not the point right ... its all about your character concept lol... yeah right.

Id like to point out that I am also talking about the crazy dipping monsters out there. And there isnt a clear line as far as what is too much. I dont mind dipping. If it was my game you could probably go a little bit farther then say the other DM we have in my area... its all up to the DM. But thats the whole point I tried to make before the forum rage took over and I had to start ducking the insults and slander... trollish? Me? Let me repeat myself. I LIKE dipping to an extent. The original poster however asked why people disliked it. I simply put a spin on it and explained why the usual excuses used for dipping are BS. But if you talk to your DM and group about your character and he is ok with the abilities you gain... who cares if it is 2 classes long or 12. Trollish lol....

[EjoThims]

Dipping doesnt balance anything.

And neither does disallowing dipping.

Because dipping isn't a balance issue.

It's an issue of 3.5 being far more player customizable than any other edition of DnD, and some people seem to think that is not a good thing.

I still don't understand why they think this, and this thread, has sadly done nothing to clarify the matter for me other than that they just refuse to want DnD to be played that way even though it's right there in the rules. 

[Bastian]

You say there are concepts on this board that do... prove it... give me some examples and I have no dout that I can make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes. It might not have the exact same power or abilities but thats not the point right ... its all about your character concept lol... yeah right.

Okay prove it. Make the concept from weenog's post without dips.

[fuinjutsu]

Again everyone is using the same excuses.... Dipping doesnt balance anything. Casters dip too. And character concepts dont require 12 classes. You say there are concepts on this board that do... prove it... give me some examples and I have no dout that I can make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes. It might not have the exact same power or abilities but thats not the point right ... its all about your character concept lol... yeah right.ok with the abilities you gain... who cares if it is 2 classes long or 12. Trollish lol....

Wow, strawman much?  

Guys, lets just put this jerk on ignore.  He's made it clear that he's convinced that the only reason people would dip is to powergame, and any other justifications we bring up are "excuses".  If he's not willing to give other people's arguments any credence, there's no point in talking to him.

Id like to point out that I am also talking about the crazy dipping monsters out there. And there isnt a clear line as far as what is too much. I dont mind dipping. If it was my game you could probably go a little bit farther then say the other DM we have in my area... its all up to the DM. But thats the whole point I tried to make before the forum rage took over and I had to start ducking the insults and slander... trollish? Me? Let me repeat myself. I LIKE dipping to an extent. The original poster however asked why people disliked it. I simply put a spin on it and explained why the usual excuses used for dipping are BS. But if you talk to your DM and group about your character and he is ok with the abilities you gain... who cares if it is 2 classes long or 12. Trollish lol....

Accusing other people of having ulterior motives instead of addressing their actual arguments is known as "argument ad hominen", and is not only a logical fallacy, but also trolling.

stfu pls, kthnxbai.

[Bozwevial]

Stormwind Fallacy.

Flavour is mutable.

Class is not equivalent to job.

Dipping is not the province of munchkins and powergamers alone.

Honestly, haven't these threads died out by now?

[Solo]

Again everyone is using the same excuses.... Dipping doesnt balance anything. Casters dip too.

What do they dip into? The most powerful casting classes and caster prestige classes all give more power if you take many levels in them as opposed to just dipping.

And character concepts dont require 12 classes. You say there are concepts on this board that do... prove it...

No one ever said that, except for you. YOU prove it.

I have no dout that I can make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes.

Ok.

Fistbeard Beardfist is currently a Dwarf Ranger1/Monk2/Ranger2/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest3/Kensai10

He deflects spells and physical attacks with his abs of steel, hits people with his magical beard, and heals by drinking alcohol.

Match him.

Ready, Set, Go.

[Bozwevial]

As an aside, Solo, have you ever considered getting an item of Silverbeard?

[atewi]

Fistbeard Beardfist is currently a Dwarf Ranger1/Monk2/Ranger2/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest3/Kensai10

He deflects spells and physical attacks with his abs of steel, hits people with his magical beard, and heals by drinking alcohol.

Monk 7/Kensai 5/Occult Slayer 5/Drunken Master 3

[Endarire]

Solo: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Poison Healer and spell turning.  He may need polymorph to become physically uber.

[Solo]

Then he wouldn't be a dwarf, or attack people with his beard, now would he?

[Dragonamedrake]

Again everyone is using the same excuses.... Dipping doesnt balance anything. Casters dip too. And character concepts dont require 12 classes. You say there are concepts on this board that do... prove it... give me some examples and I have no dout that I can make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes. It might not have the exact same power or abilities but thats not the point right ... its all about your character concept lol... yeah right.ok with the abilities you gain... who cares if it is 2 classes long or 12. Trollish lol....

Wow, strawman much?  

Guys, lets just put this jerk on ignore.  He's made it clear that he's convinced that the only reason people would dip is to powergame, and any other justifications we bring up are "excuses".  If he's not willing to give other people's arguments any credence, there's no point in talking to him.

Id like to point out that I am also talking about the crazy dipping monsters out there. And there isnt a clear line as far as what is too much. I dont mind dipping. If it was my game you could probably go a little bit farther then say the other DM we have in my area... its all up to the DM. But thats the whole point I tried to make before the forum rage took over and I had to start ducking the insults and slander... trollish? Me? Let me repeat myself. I LIKE dipping to an extent. The original poster however asked why people disliked it. I simply put a spin on it and explained why the usual excuses used for dipping are BS. But if you talk to your DM and group about your character and he is ok with the abilities you gain... who cares if it is 2 classes long or 12. Trollish lol....

Accusing other people of having ulterior motives instead of addressing their actual arguments is known as "argument ad hominen", and is not only a logical fallacy, but also trolling.

stfu pls, kthnxbai.

Wow, Nerd rage much?

Ive been polite and considerate this entire argument. Ive not insulted or thrown out name calling from the beginning. Just as you express your opinion... I have the same option.
Ive explained in several of my responses why I believe the arguments to be false. You can disagree, but to slam me for having a different opinion is rude. Keep it polite. As for trolling... Ive been on topic the entire time.... just cause you dont like what I have to say doesnt make me a troll.

Im not going to tell you to stfu though... keep talking. Im not the enemy... Im not against dipping... get over it and move on.

[Littha]

Just because you don't insult people it doesn't mean you are polite, you have been openly condescending and have spent a lot of your time calling peoples explanations "BS" which is pretty insulting and detrimental to the point at hand.

Also why BS? Too lazy to write it out in full?

[Solo]

As for trolling... Ive been on topic the entire time.... just cause you dont like what I have to say doesnt make me a troll.

Being on topic does not mean that you are not a troll.

[weenog]

Again everyone is using the same excuses.... Dipping doesnt balance anything. Casters dip too. And character concepts dont require 12 classes. You say there are concepts on this board that do... prove it... give me some examples and I have no dout that I can make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes. It might not have the exact same power or abilities but thats not the point right ... its all about your character concept lol... yeah right.

I'm going to assume the 12 is an exaggeration, and by that you simply mean "a lot of" classes. I'll also assume you don't want to wade through a long post inside a spoiler, so let me chop out the relevant paragraphs and quote only them.

A long while back I went to the Character Optimization board with a build request, and I ended up with a character build with eight classes -- two base, six prestige. My request wasn't for the most power available short of Pun-Pun, or to heavily focus on one thing so as to be unbeatable in that area, nor was I just looking for the most multiclassed build possible. My request was more along the lines of "My werebear barbarian PC and his redeemed succubus wife have children, how can I assemble a character that demonstrates the capabilities of that mixed heritage, for when the kids grow up into playable characters?" After a lot of discussion a build was worked out: Bard 4/Barbarian 1/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Rage Mage 2/Bear Warrior 1/Sublime Chord 1/Eldritch Knight 9. This grants BAB +17/+12/+7/+2, Charisma-based spontaneous casting of a small number of level 1-9 spells on the bard and sorcerer/wizard spell lists, a limited ability to ignore arcane spell failure, limited bardic knowlege, rage, the ability to cast spells while raging, and the ability to transform into a bear while raging, as well as some other minor abilities that aren't so important.

You might look at that class combination and cringe, thinking "What an overcomplicated, unfocused, dipped mess of a class collection." I look at it and think "This is Rachel Lovato, an energetic and outgoing young woman who's a capable warrior. She can draw on the bestial strength passed down from her father David, the compelling presence and magical talents of Seneca her mother, and the fiery temper she inherited from both. She prefers to get by with her cunning and charm, but she's a bit of a tomboy and likes a good brawl more than is proper for a lady. She hasn't seen as much of the multiverse as her parents, but she learned a little about everything from the stories they told her as a child, and it serves Rachel well in her own adventures." (I also think that from a raw power perspective, a single-classed Druid 20 would defeat Rachel easily.)

Simplified even further, the concept is: First-generation offspring of a werebear berserker and an advanced succubus, raised and trained by both parents, primarily gets along with social skills and mind-influencing magic, but freaks out and turns into a hard-fighting animal when the shit hits the fan.

Now you get to "make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes".  Lower powered is fine, but you may not make her epic to take on non-epic enemies, and you may not leave her unable to reliably inflict damage or enchantments (assuming correct target selection) on appropriate CR opponents.  Unless you've been full of hot air this entire time, you'd better get on it.

[Solo]

Hey, get in line. I'm still waiting for him to remake Fistbeard Beardfist in a simpler, more elegant way.

[weenog]

Hey, get in line. I'm still waiting for him to remake Fistbeard Beardfist in a simpler, more elegant way.

I mentioned Rachel Lovato (and Bastian challenged him to make it) before you.

[Solo]

I outrank you

[weenog]

Maybe if he does actually rise to the challenge and do both, next we can have him gestalt the two. While riding a tiny bicycle and waving sparklers.

[atewi]

Then he wouldn't be a dwarf, or attack people with his beard, now would he?

Ok, Dwarf Monk 7/Kensai 5/Occult Slayer 5/Drunken Master.  Grow the beard long and over his face and headbutt people.

[Dragonamedrake]

Just because you don't insult people it doesn't mean you are polite, you have been openly condescending and have spent a lot of your time calling peoples explanations "BS" which is pretty insulting and detrimental to the point at hand.

Also why BS? Too lazy to write it out in full?

If Im not insulting anyone, Im on topic, and Im only expressing my opinion then how am I not being polite. I dont right it out in full because I dont wish to curse in a moderated forum.

As for trolling... Ive been on topic the entire time.... just cause you dont like what I have to say doesnt make me a troll.

Being on topic does not mean that you are not a troll.

Do you know what a troll is? Here in case your confused I looked it up for you on wiki and bolded the important parts...

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[

Im not trying to piss anyone off. And Im on topic... so by definition Im not trolling.

Now Im done responding to personal attacks because not we are getting off topic.. Weenog I will take your challenge though Im not the best at Optimization. And I wasnt entirely exagerating... Ive seen 12 class builds... anywho I will give it a shot and let you know what I come up with. This might actually be fun to try now that Im done defending my point of view.