Author Topic: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?  (Read 16359 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2010, 03:31:02 AM »
I don't know about where you are from, but in my part of the world, calling something someone says "BS" is pretty inflammatory. Especially when there's been two posts providing examples.

Also, Atewi, maybe my memory is faulty, what are those five levels of occult slayer adding? I recall the ability to reflect spells, but not a whole lot else of use. What would the stat layout for that be with 32 pb? It looks pretty tight. FBBF had a pretty straightforward deal involving pumping con and soaking the rest, iirc.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2010, 03:35:48 AM »
You can curse on this forum, just don't spew profanity with no actual content.  Good luck with the magically seductive fighting bear and possibly Fistbeard Beardfist.

Regarding the original topic, I think of classes as ability kits to be used however I and others want.  I don't panic about dipped characters, and I think the rules even encourage it.  Favored Class doesn't make you better at being that class, a goblin rogue isn't substantially better at overall roguery than an elf rogue (though darkvision is nice).   A goblin wizard's acid splash might hurt more if you're not looking when he shoots it at you, though.

The one thing I really don't like about heavily dipped characters is it's hard to tell at a glance exactly what they're about.  This isn't just an issue with heavily dipped characters, though, it just tends to be common with them.  Any class with highly variable class features (fighter, any spellcaster that has a choice what its spell list looks like, etc) can be the same.  And a single base or prestige class that's just plain unfamiliar to the reader can also cause this.  It's not that big a deal, though, if it matters, you can just ask.

EDIT: I don't doubt that 12-class builds have been seen, I was more getting after the "dont require 12 classes" bit.  Rachel Lovato already doesn't require 12, she requires 8, if executed in that way.  Reducing it to "dont require a lot of classes" makes her a bit more relevant here.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 03:43:50 AM by weenog »
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atewi

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2010, 04:22:45 AM »
Also, Atewi, maybe my memory is faulty, what are those five levels of occult slayer adding? I recall the ability to reflect spells, but not a whole lot else of use. What would the stat layout for that be with 32 pb? It looks pretty tight. FBBF had a pretty straightforward deal involving pumping con and soaking the rest, iirc.
At level 5 of Occult Slayer he gets mind blank, His chosen weapon also does more damage against spell casters or creatures with spell like abilities, deals double damage if he disrupts the spell, +3 to all saving throws against spells or Spell like abilities. Focus Strength, Constitution and Wisdom for armor, health and additional damage.

Dragonamedrake

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2010, 05:10:45 AM »

A long while back I went to the Character Optimization board with a build request, and I ended up with a character build with eight classes -- two base, six prestige. My request wasn't for the most power available short of Pun-Pun, or to heavily focus on one thing so as to be unbeatable in that area, nor was I just looking for the most multiclassed build possible. My request was more along the lines of "My werebear barbarian PC and his redeemed succubus wife have children, how can I assemble a character that demonstrates the capabilities of that mixed heritage, for when the kids grow up into playable characters?" After a lot of discussion a build was worked out: Bard 4/Barbarian 1/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Rage Mage 2/Bear Warrior 1/Sublime Chord 1/Eldritch Knight 9. This grants BAB +17/+12/+7/+2, Charisma-based spontaneous casting of a small number of level 1-9 spells on the bard and sorcerer/wizard spell lists, a limited ability to ignore arcane spell failure, limited bardic knowlege, rage, the ability to cast spells while raging, and the ability to transform into a bear while raging, as well as some other minor abilities that aren't so important.

"This is Rachel Lovato, an energetic and outgoing young woman who's a capable warrior. She can draw on the bestial strength passed down from her father David, the compelling presence and magical talents of Seneca her mother, and the fiery temper she inherited from both. She prefers to get by with her cunning and charm, but she's a bit of a tomboy and likes a good brawl more than is proper for a lady. She hasn't seen as much of the multiverse as her parents, but she learned a little about everything from the stories they told her as a child, and it serves Rachel well in her own adventures." quote]

Simplified even further, the concept is: First-generation offspring of a werebear berserker and an advanced succubus, raised and trained by both parents, primarily gets along with social skills and mind-influencing magic, but freaks out and turns into a hard-fighting animal when the shit hits the fan.

Now you get to "make a character with the same flavour with alot fewer classes".  Lower powered is fine, but you may not make her epic to take on non-epic enemies, and you may not leave her unable to reliably inflict damage or enchantments (assuming correct target selection) on appropriate CR opponents.  Unless you've been full of hot air this entire time, you'd better get on it.

How about...

Druid Avenger 3/ Battle Sorc 5/ Arcane Hierophant 10/Rage Mage 2... not in that order of course.

Now thats only a +13 BAB but thats not to shabby. And you gain 8th lvl Arcane casting and 7th lvl Druid casting. O and you can wildshap as a 13th lvl Druid (18th with the right magic item I believe)

She can turn into a bear... actually in this build she can turn into a much scarier bear. She can rage and still cast spells. She can cast arcane charm spells for out of combat, and buff spells to get her combat up there if the stuff hits the fan. Social skills might take a hit on this build as you dont have nearly as many skill points but Im sure that could be fixed.

So there ya go. Same character concept... only 4 classes. Is it as powerful... meh probably not. But then thats my point right :)

Other options I thought about where replacing Battle Sorc with Beguiler or Warlock... maybe coming up with a Eldritch Disciple build but this one seemed to be all around better for what the original poster wanted... seems more care free and not so dark.

Also a really cool option would be to work with your DM on altering The Wild Soul class to be a infernal flavor instead of a Seelie fey flavor.... it would be a perfect blend I believe.

Hey, get in line. I'm still waiting for him to remake Fistbeard Beardfist in a simpler, more elegant way.
I mentioned Rachel Lovato (and Bastian challenged him to make it) before you. :P

Didnt atwie already give you a simpler build? Dwarf Monk 7/Kensai 5/Occult Slayer 5/Drunken Master right.

And again let me stress I dont take issue with complicated or heavy dip builds. I just have a different opinion on why its done. I didnt mean to get anyones feathers ruffled. The above class I made is probably less powerful but then again I think it does what was asked. This is all just my opinion. I love all the crazy builds on here. Its why I come to these boards.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 05:13:06 AM by Dragonamedrake »

Endarire

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2010, 05:34:10 AM »
Solo: Dream Dwarf Arcane Unarmed Swordsage.  You get spell turning and mind blank.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

fuinjutsu

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2010, 08:16:19 AM »
Wow, Nerd rage much?

Ive been polite and considerate this entire argument. Ive not insulted or thrown out name calling from the beginning. Just as you express your opinion... I have the same option.
Ive explained in several of my responses why I believe the arguments to be false. You can disagree, but to slam me for having a different opinion is rude. Keep it polite. As for trolling... Ive been on topic the entire time.... just cause you dont like what I have to say doesnt make me a troll.

Im not going to tell you to stfu though... keep talking. Im not the enemy... Im not against dipping... get over it and move on.

On what planet is accusing the other person of perfidy instead of addressing his arguments POLITE in a discussion?

Let's recap, shall we?

Gaming, as in abusing the system in order to gain a benefit that wasn't intended, a rough definition, I know, but still, it fits what Im trying to describe. Abusing is probably a better way to put it, now that I think.

And like I said, the balance of the game isn't the topic of discussion, its why people dislike Dipping. I dislike dipping because it is obviously abusing the system for the reasons I outlined above.

Except the system is designed in such a way that the game is unbalanced, unfair, and if you choose to not be a caster, UNFUN.

If that's the system, I am ALL for gaming it... or alternatively, finding/making a better system. 

There's nothing wrong with working the system, when you're working the system to make it more fair, more balanced, and MORE FUN.  Unless you're one of those people who hate fun.

There is excuse A again...

Im all for fun. Hell Im all for dipping. But putting a pretty bow on it and calling it something its not is just dumb. Your not trying to balance anthing. Your trying to turn out a powerhouse. But again. If the DM is fine with that. And the other players dont care. Go all out. I know I press my luck all the time ;)

From an RP standpoint alot of these classes have a RP flavor that should require some legwork to get into.

Not necessarily.  Yes, the original fluff PrC's are based on the idea of specialized training from Prestige Organizations, and you theoretically have to be a member to be in the class.  But that's fluff.  fluff is mutable.

I, and no small amount of people I've played with, choose to see classes as purely metagame concepts.  A Paladin is not the same as a paladin.  We do not look at classes, we look at the capabilities of the overall build.  Someone who sneaks up in the shadows and sticks a short blade into yoru kidney is a ninja, never mind what class he took.  A player playing a Factotum can be Jen'Si, Acolyte of the Monastic Order of Shu'li'wa, a humble traveling monk, if he wants to and flavors his abilities to fit.

Ok come on now... really? Now we are really streaching. Metagame concepts... what does that even mean! Heres the deal. DnD was meant to be a CLASS based system. Not a skill based system where you come up with a character concept and then put points into the abilites you want them to have... thats a game like Mutants and Masterminds. If the creaters didnt want you to mold your character around the classes you take, they wouldnt have class restrictions or prereqs... and they wouldnt put almost a full page of backstory for almost every PrC out there. NO ... Someone who sneaks up in the shadows and sticks a short blade into your kidney CAN be a ninja... or a rogue... or a friggin commoner with a knife and a few lucky rolls. Your class is supposed to define you. Its supposed to help you create a backstory and a purpose. Sure you can create your own but you can make up your own class for gods sake. I RPed an insane Warlock who swore he was an all powerful mage... even convinced the group. Untill his "Teleport" turned out to be a darkness spell. That didnt make me a mage... I was a Warlock. I talked to demons and they threw me some bones aka powers.  You taking 7 different PrCs doesnt have anything to do with "Molding your character". It has everything to do with you gaining the power you want to have to go kick butt. Lie to your DM, Lie to yourself, but I see the truth my friend.

Ok, Ok... so there are a few of the big excuses. But heres the thing. I still dont see it as a big deal if you follow the golden rule... Talk to the DM. If you have full discorse on what you want to do and what he allows there shouldnt be a problem if you take 20 classes in 20 lvls. If he knows what your going to do and what you can get out of those lvls and he is ok with it then why not. If the DM isnt ok with that... if he has rules in place that restrict you to 2 or 3 classes max... and you cant come up with ONE friggin character that you would have fun playing in his game... then find a new group... or better yet take up the DM chair and run the game the way you see fit. If everyone is just honest with what they want to do and how they plan on doing it... then it shouldnt matter. Alright Ima jump off my soap box.

Now are you seriously going tell me with a straight face that you did not commit Argument Ad Hominem in a grossly insulting manner?

Hell, that "my friend" line alone makes the tone of your post incredibly condescending.

Instead of arguing against my points, which you totally ignored in favor of soapboxing, you simply repeated a mantra of

U JUST WANNA POWERGAME, THATS WHY YOU LIKE DIPPING, LALALALALALA NOT LISTENING TO YOUR EXCUSES.

Well, fine.  If you don't care to use logic or reason, I see no point in wasting any more of it on you.

I'll be here on planet earth if you every decided you want to have a honest discussion, instead of coming in with a blatant and condescending prejudice.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

weenog

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2010, 09:46:03 AM »
Druid Avenger 3/ Battle Sorc 5/ Arcane Hierophant 10/Rage Mage 2... not in that order of course.

Now thats only a +13 BAB but thats not to shabby. And you gain 8th lvl Arcane casting and 7th lvl Druid casting. O and you can wildshap as a 13th lvl Druid (18th with the right magic item I believe)

She can turn into a bear... actually in this build she can turn into a much scarier bear. She can rage and still cast spells. She can cast arcane charm spells for out of combat, and buff spells to get her combat up there if the stuff hits the fan. Social skills might take a hit on this build as you dont have nearly as many skill points but Im sure that could be fixed.

So there ya go. Same character concept... only 4 classes. Is it as powerful... meh probably not. But then thats my point right :)

Other options I thought about where replacing Battle Sorc with Beguiler or Warlock... maybe coming up with a Eldritch Disciple build but this one seemed to be all around better for what the original poster wanted... seems more care free and not so dark.

Uh, you've added divine casting up to 7th level, which is actually a fairly significant power addition, and not really in line with the concept.  It is a significantly better bear, which is good.  Skills do matter, succubi are more subtle manipulators than combat wombats, even when they have advanced and taken some class levels.  Care free vs dark is kind of a tough call...  on the one hand the succubus is apparently redeemed, on the other it is still a demon, and some traits of its origin should probably show through.

BAB +13 is a bit of a problem.  Never getting a 4th attack through base attack isn't as big a deal with a claw-claw-bite attack routine, but that's a lot of accuracy gone missing, and in the case of a multiple threat character, you can't devote quite as many resources to go around cutting your own nuts off like that (shock trooper's heedless charge manuever is rather unlikely, for one thing).

Beguiler's got the right sort of spells, but it relies on Intelligence, not Charisma, increasing MAD and moving away from representing hereditary abilities with the class/feat/spell selection build (demons do tend to be pretty smart, but Int sure isn't the ability score succubi are known for).  Warlock does give a nice demonic feel, and can be okay at messing with minds if you pick the right invocations; it's also not legal to plug into arcane heirophant, nor rage mage.  It's tempting to say a DM might make allowances, but if the DM's going to start making fiat decisions instead of following the rules, he might as well just create a custom class specifically for the character, sidestepping the class dipping issue entirely but also making a much greater workload for himself.

Nice first attempt, I suppose, but I can't give it a passing grade.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 09:52:04 AM by weenog »
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Solo

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2010, 10:38:39 AM »
Didnt atwie already give you a simpler build? Dwarf Monk 7/Kensai 5/Occult Slayer 5/Drunken Master right.
I don't think the point was for atwie to give me a simpler build with the same flavor, though I do appreciate his effort.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

McPoyo

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2010, 11:11:55 AM »
Also, Atewi, maybe my memory is faulty, what are those five levels of occult slayer adding? I recall the ability to reflect spells, but not a whole lot else of use. What would the stat layout for that be with 32 pb? It looks pretty tight. FBBF had a pretty straightforward deal involving pumping con and soaking the rest, iirc.
At level 5 of Occult Slayer he gets mind blank, His chosen weapon also does more damage against spell casters or creatures with spell like abilities, deals double damage if he disrupts the spell, +3 to all saving throws against spells or Spell like abilities. Focus Strength, Constitution and Wisdom for armor, health and additional damage.
Ah, the mindblank effect. That's what I was forgetting.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2010, 11:19:15 AM »
Forewarned: I only read page 1.

-Holdover mentality from 2nd edition
Bearing light on this for those who do not know. In AD&D (D&D 2nd edition) things are a lot different.

1. Each class had it's own XP advancement.
Example, 8th level fighter has 125,000xp while a 8th level cleric has 110,000xp. These xp rates are tracked independently of each other. A multiclass fighter/cleric with 125,000xp has 7 cleric levels and is close to obtaining his 7th fighter level.

2. AD&D has Multiclassing & Dualclassing.
Nonhuman races can multiclass and in pretty much every case possible you want to multiclass. Srsly, you can be a wizard/cleric with 7 levels in each netting 4th level arcane & divine spells at the same xp level as a guy who just got his 8th level in fighter.

Dualclassing on the other hand is human only. Uncapped and allowed to run batcrazy insane. Screw taking your 30th level in wizard, pick up something like 12 levels in fighter, 11 in cleric, 12 in rogue, and for the lolz 16 levels in bard. All for the same xp amount it would take for that 30th level.

Multiclassing(and the dropped dualclass term) had it's seeds of munchkinning planted in 3E long before people even read the books.

***

Outside of 2E players and the people that listened to them. I've mostly only seen dip hate being directly linked to the think we all hate the most. Roleplayers.

RP: "Dipping around doesn't fit your character."
Other: "Who are you to decide what fits my character?"
RP: "I mean like, a sorcerer would not dip into sand shaper then mindbender then whatever else you scribbled down for your munchkining reasons."
Other: "Maybe my character lives in a desert and wants to be a mind reading enchanter."
RP: "I can do that with just wizard, you need to do it my way if you want to do it right."
Other: "No thanks, I'm going to screw things up over here and show off my expertise others cannot normally match by taking a nap as a result of my hard work and training instead."
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

atewi

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2010, 12:36:34 PM »
My regular game is World of Darkness, and I'd like to think I'm a damn good roleplayer.  All I said was serial dipping gives the appearance of powergaming.  Honestly Multiclassing is fine, but when you reach 5, 1 level dips into any class it looks like you're cherry picking and not playing.  A sorcerer/Sand Shaper/Mind bender is fine, but a Sorcerer/Cleric/Sand Shaper/Bard/Druid/Mind Bender/Swordsage is much much more difficult.  Did he "Discover his magical prowess, then find god (in a desert).  Once there he knew he had to sing of his gods greatness (even though they just met), all while venerating the desert he left (that he just found).  When no one would listen to him (Sing praises about a God whose church he just joined, or a desert that kills most idiots who enter it), he decided to learn how to twist thoughts.  When that didn't work and the people refused to march into the desert he grabbed a sword. His mind filled with maneuvers of great power, and decided conversion by force, and not by coercion, is the way to go."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 12:41:50 PM by atewi »

EjoThims

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2010, 12:41:28 PM »
My regular game is World of Darkness, and I'd like to think I'm a damn good roleplayer.  All I said was serial dipping gives the appearance of powergaming.  Honestly Multiclassing is fine, but when you reach 5, 1 level dips into any class it looks like you're cherry picking and not playing.  A sorcerer/Sand Shaper/Mind bender is fine, but a Sorcerer/Cleric/Sand Shaper/Bard/Druid/Mind Bender/Crusader is much much more difficult.  Did he "Discover his magical prowess, then find god (in a desert).  Once there he knew he had to sing of his gods greatness (even though they just met), all while venerating the desert he left (that he just found).  When no one would listen to him he learned how to twist minds so he could make them listen to his God's words.  When that didn't work he grabbed a sword, his mind filling with maneuvers of great power, and decided conversion by force is the way to go."

Sounds fine to me. So he's flighty, easily manipulated, and probably subconsciously using the religious experience to push his own agenda and demands instead of his god's (which is why he isn't taking any more cleric levels), but that just creates a more complex and deep character if it's actually explored.

Bozwevial

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2010, 12:47:55 PM »
My regular game is World of Darkness, and I'd like to think I'm a damn good roleplayer.  All I said was serial dipping gives the appearance of powergaming.  Honestly Multiclassing is fine, but when you reach 5, 1 level dips into any class it looks like you're cherry picking and not playing.  A sorcerer/Sand Shaper/Mind bender is fine, but a Sorcerer/Cleric/Sand Shaper/Bard/Druid/Mind Bender/Crusader is much much more difficult.  Did he "Discover his magical prowess, then find god (in a desert).  Once there he knew he had to sing of his gods greatness (even though they just met), all while venerating the desert he left (that he just found).  When no one would listen to him he learned how to twist minds so he could make them listen to his God's words.  When that didn't work he grabbed a sword, his mind filling with maneuvers of great power, and decided conversion by force is the way to go."

Sounds fine to me. So he's flighty, easily manipulated, and probably subconsciously using the religious experience to push his own agenda and demands instead of his god's (which is why he isn't taking any more cleric levels), but that just creates a more complex and deep character if it's actually explored.

And said religious angle could lead later to taking levels in Ur-Priest. See? Perfectly rational.

atewi

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2010, 12:49:41 PM »
Right, but what does it look like? Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric, with Bard and Swordsage (Who this late in the game is really only there for the 9th level maneuvers) to top it off.  That's 3 of the big 5, and as a DM I would tend to comb over that application very closely.

snakeman830

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2010, 12:50:49 PM »
Right, but what does it look like? Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric, with Bard and Swordsage (Who this late in the game is really only there for the 9th level maneuvers) to top it off.  That's 3 of the big 5, and as a DM I would tend to comb over that application very closely.
It's 3 of the Big 5, but it isn't worth worrying about.  It's diluted too much to be overwhelming.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

EjoThims

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2010, 12:52:36 PM »
Right, but what does it look like? Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric, with Bard and Swordsage (Who this late in the game is really only there for the 9th level maneuvers) to top it off.  That's 3 of the big 5, and as a DM I would tend to comb over that application very closely.
It's 3 of the Big 5, but it isn't worth worrying about.  They diluted it toomuch to be overwhelming.

This.

It doesn't even (at this point) look like it's set up properly to end up as a good double threat, much less triple or quad.

Bozwevial

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2010, 12:54:22 PM »
Right, but what does it look like? Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric, with Bard and Swordsage (Who this late in the game is really only there for the 9th level maneuvers) to top it off.  That's 3 of the big 5, and as a DM I would tend to comb over that application very closely.
It's 3 of the Big 5, but it isn't worth worrying about.  They diluted it toomuch to be overwhelming.

This.

It doesn't even (at this point) look like it's set up properly to end up as a good double threat, much less triple or quad.

I think if you were going for a good arcane casting/ToB combination, you'd want to use Jade Phoenix Mage.

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2010, 01:27:41 PM »
Quote
RP: "Dipping around doesn't fit your character."
Other: "Who are you to decide what fits my character?"
RP: "I mean like, a sorcerer would not dip into sand shaper then mindbender then whatever else you scribbled down for your munchkining reasons."
Other: "Maybe my character lives in a desert and wants to be a mind reading enchanter."
RP: "I can do that with just wizard, you need to do it my way if you want to do it right."
Other: "No thanks, I'm going to screw things up over here and show off my expertise others cannot normally match by taking a nap as a result of my hard work and training instead."
quoted for truth!

since nobody forces other players to dip around there should not really be a problem here.
if one wants to do it to accomplish something great and make a strong char, you should let him!

when someone has more knowledge and expertise in makeing chars and builds thay should be allowed to do so...
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Unbeliever

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2010, 02:40:55 PM »
The past page all seems to revolve around treating classes as careers or professions rather than abstract game artifacts.  My group(s) tend towards the latter:  if you want to play a knight, you're welcome to take the knight class and be done w/ it, and make it into part of the narrative, but you're under no obligation to do so.  We treat them as bundles of abilities that are linked together in what is one of the charming, and occasionally simplifying, parts of the D&D game. 

If you do that, stuff like the RP exchange above -- which we've all had to suffer through and would annoy the hell out of me -- doesn't really even make sense.  It's hard to talk about what a "sorcerer" would or won't do. 

I gather from the discussion so far that I might be an outlier in treating classes this way, but I'm going to argue that it really makes for better games, namely by making for a better character creation experience.  First, it's not compulsory:  like I said, if you want to create a "barbarian" and just grab levels in the barbarian class. 

But, let's take a fantasy series I happen to think is quite good and w/ well-realized characters, George RR Martin's series (at least until "Feast of Crows," but that's another conversation).  You wouldn't be crazy if, by profession, you were to say that Sandor Clegane, Gregor Clegane, Jaime Lannister, and Rob Stark were all knights.  And, if class = profession, then they are all going to be knights/fighters or something thereabouts.  Now, maybe feats will allow you to get some difference at the game table between the Mountain that Rides feels in combat and how Jaime "I'm better w/ a sword than you and your 10 best friends put together" Lannister, but maybe there's a random class ability here or there.  It certainly wouldn't be off to characterize the inhumanly strong, huge, and berserk Gregor as a Frenzied Berserker or some other flavor of Barb even though he's lived in the bosom of civilization the entire time. 

That, I submit, is what dipping gets you.  Sometimes feats and magic items will get you to the same place, since powers are essentially randomly distributed throughout the game, but it seems weird to treat classes as the one sacred cow.  Also, feats might just not do enough to make the characters feel distinct.  Gregor is big, so Jotunbrud is a good choice, but if that was the only difference between him and another character you wouldn't be selling how the character is described at all -- that would be too minor a difference. 


@the "More Powah" point
I think others have articulated my annoyance w/ this point better than I have.  I just want to add one more thing.  Just b/c you can in theory build the concept isn't necessarily enough.   If the non-dipped version of the character sucks, meaning it can't really contribute in a reasonable party, then it's not really viable.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2010, 03:29:50 PM »
My regular game is World of Darkness, and I'd like to think I'm a damn good roleplayer.  All I said was serial dipping gives the appearance of powergaming.  Honestly Multiclassing is fine, but when you reach 5, 1 level dips into any class it looks like you're cherry picking and not playing.  A sorcerer/Sand Shaper/Mind bender is fine, but a Sorcerer/Cleric/Sand Shaper/Bard/Druid/Mind Bender/Swordsage is much much more difficult.  Did he "Discover his magical prowess, then find god (in a desert).  Once there he knew he had to sing of his gods greatness (even though they just met), all while venerating the desert he left (that he just found).  When no one would listen to him (Sing praises about a God whose church he just joined, or a desert that kills most idiots who enter it), he decided to learn how to twist thoughts.  When that didn't work and the people refused to march into the desert he grabbed a sword. His mind filled with maneuvers of great power, and decided conversion by force, and not by coercion, is the way to go."


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