Author Topic: Evil Jedi  (Read 2504 times)

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Luckanan

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Evil Jedi
« on: May 27, 2010, 10:24:27 AM »
Building an evil neutral Jedi, using psionics to mimic force powers (Telekinetic Maneuver for the choke hold, Energy Cone for the lightning, etc.)  The "lightsaber" is going to be an adamantine sword with an energy property on it and Quickdraw (either through feat or a crystal).

My question problem is, how to optimize sword-fighting with psionics?  I'd like to take a level of monk or swordsage for Wis to AC (monk takes care of feats though).  Ardent 10 for Dominant Ideal.  Maybe Shiba protector for Wis to hit and damage.

Starting level 7.  Customized mantles.  Metamorphosis/shapechanging powers not allowed.  Free major bloodline (Celestial)+

human
1) Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Training: Ardent, Tashalatora, Iron Will
2) Ardent 1: Energy Mantle, Force Mantle, Alertness (bloodline)
3) Ardent 2: Mental Power Mantle, Practiced Manifester
4) Ardent 3:
5) Ardent 4:
6) Ardent 5: Time Mantle, Linked Power
7) Ardent 6:
8) Ardent 7:
9) Shiba Protector 1: Combat Expertise
10) Ardent 8:
11) Ardent 9:
12) Ardent 10: Dominant Ideal: Time, Metapower:Synchronicity
13) Warblade 1: (Iron Heart Surge, woot!)
14) Ardent 11:
15) Ardent 12: Psicrystal Affinity
16) Ardent 13:
17) Ardent 14:
18) Ardent 15: Natural World mantle, Feat? (probably Martial Stance or Improved Grapple)
19) Ardent 16:
20) Ardent 17:
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 10:52:25 PM by Luckanan »

thebigstupidfighter

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 11:40:37 AM »
Well first off I'd recommend Psionic Meditation, its a feat from XPH that lets you regain your psionic focus as a move action. I'm not familier with Shiba Protector so I don't know what you need for prereqs and such, but with Psionic Meditation you can use Link Power all day long while still full attacking(assuming you link to Hustle) which is very nice.

As for continuoing the build, SRD Slayer is always nice, full BAB will add to your gish factor and 9/10 manifester progression along with some nice abilities makes it very appealing to me at least.

If you're looking to go the ToB route, Diamond Mind would have great fluff synergy with being a Jedi, and you probably already have a maxed Concentration check so you're all good there. A level of Warblade and a level of Bloodstorm Blade would let you toss your lightsaber and have it return to you, interesting fluff if nothing else and it could be useful thoguh telekinesis woulkd likely overshadow it.

RobbyPants

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 01:36:22 PM »
I don't know enough about Ardents to say anything useful on the matter.

That being said, swordsage or psychic warrior jump out at me thematically.  If you go the psychic warrior route, I can see taking either a level of monk or two of swordsage for +Wis to AC.  It's thematic although not terribly optimal.  If you're starting the game out at a higher level, you can simply get a Monk's Belt and call it a day and not worry about multiclassing.  Still, one level of monk isn't the end of the world.

I'd personally lean more toward psychic warrior just because so many of the powers are thematically appropriate.  However, you may have to take Expanded Knowledge several times to gain access to key powers.  

Alternately, play a psion and take the Illithid Slayer PrC (or rather the Slayer PrC from the SRD with the Illithid fluff removed) to make more of a psi-gish, which makes picking up powers easier.  Swordsage 2/Psion 6 could enter in, giving you sword proficiency and +Wis to AC.  Although this has a problem of needing Int and Wis, so you can see if the DM would let Camberdine Monk/Kung Fu Genius apply to the swordsage abilities, and let you add +Int to AC instead.  Psion 8 could also enter, which removes the Wis to AC ability, but allows you to focus solely on Int.  It also keeps your Manchester level up high, but doesn't give you sword proficiency, which kind of kills your light saber idea.  It also leaves you relatively weak in the fighting department for 9 levels.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 01:38:17 PM by RobbyPants »
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Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 07:02:47 PM »
Quote from: Bunkos Bargain Basement, Reopened
Wand of Flame Blade (PH 231 for spell, 4,500gp)  Flaming Scimitar in your hands uses melee touch attacks when you attack.  The poor man's lightsaber.
And it's fire, so it's (most likely) red, so everyone will know you're a bad jedi!  :D

But yeah, a Psion 6 / SS 2 / Slayer 10 with Carmendine monk would make a sick sith. Note, you'll be a badass with the force, but even if you take a full bab class next, you'll never quite hit maximum attacks pre-epic. Still, you are a badass force user, so who gives a fuck?  :p

Garryl

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 09:13:11 PM »


Psion 8 could also enter, which removes the Wis to AC ability, but allows you to focus solely on Int.  It also keeps your Manchester level up high, but doesn't give you sword proficiency, which kind of kills your light saber idea.  It also leaves you relatively weak in the fighting department for 9 levels.

Slayer grants proficiency with all armor and simple/martial weapons, so no sword use problems there.


But yeah, a Psion 6 / SS 2 / Slayer 10 with Carmendine monk would make a sick sith. Note, you'll be a badass with the force, but even if you take a full bab class next, you'll never quite hit maximum attacks pre-epic. Still, you are a badass force user, so who gives a fuck?  :p

Psion 6/SS2/Slayer 10/Full BaB or Swordsage +2 gives +16 BaB by 20th (+3 from Psion, +1 from SS 2, +10 from Slayer, total +14 at 18th). That's just enough for maximum attacks. Unfortunately, it also requires a full manifesting progression for 9th level powers.

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dark_samuari

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2010, 10:14:39 PM »
Why not Ardent instead of Psion?

Luckanan

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 10:38:32 PM »
Edited original post.  Using Tashalatora to get flurry with a short sword (alternate monk weapon, Dragon).  Though it's thematic, it just kills me to use the sword when either unarmed or Claws of the Beast would do a lot more damage.  Any suggestions to up sword damage?

Garryl

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 01:29:41 AM »
You mentioned that you are getting a free major celestial bloodline. How is that going to interact with your Ardent ML? If you're getting the bloodline boosts at 3rd, 6th, and 12th, you can forgo the Practiced Manifester feat as you'll have a bonus to your ML, bringing you back up to normal ML progression.
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Luckanan

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 02:38:06 AM »
Ah, not so lucky.  We just get the level dependent benefits of the bloodline (feats, skill bonuses, etc.) without getting that +1 to everything part at 3rd, 6th, 12th (as we're not taking those three "ECL" levels).

Saeomon

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 03:25:02 AM »
Two levels of Psychic Warrior plus the variant Soulbound Weapon ability could function as a lightsaber.

As for increasing sword damage, the advantage you have over using Natural Attacks is that you aren't limited to 2 attacks/round like you are with Claws of the Beast, and the advantage you have over unarmed attacks is that it's generally easier to enhance weapon attacks than it is to enhance unarmed strikes. What you should focus on is increasing the number of attacks you get each round and your ability to connect with those attacks. Dominant Ideal + Linked Power + Synchronicity will net you an extra attack at full BAB each round, for example. Alternatively, Dominant Ideal + Linked Power + Deep Impact + Hustle will turn one of your attacks into a touch attack.

RobbyPants

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »


Psion 8 could also enter, which removes the Wis to AC ability, but allows you to focus solely on Int.  It also keeps your Manchester level up high, but doesn't give you sword proficiency, which kind of kills your light saber idea.  It also leaves you relatively weak in the fighting department for 9 levels.

Slayer grants proficiency with all armor and simple/martial weapons, so no sword use problems there.
Yeah, I forgot about that.  So really psion 8 or psion 6/swordsage 2 are both viable 8th level entries.  It just depends on how much you want +Wis (or Int with the right feat) to AC, or if you can grab a Monk's Belt.


Why not Ardent instead of Psion?
The only reason I suggested it is because I don't own/read Complete Psionic.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 01:22:09 PM »
So I'll repost this because well I can...

So in my process to replicate what a Jedi may be like within the 3.5 system I found the Ardent to be a really good way off pulling it off. So here are some of the mantles that I had (after using the ACF to reconstruct them). Some notes to be had though, the mantles were considerably created lower-powered to establish the power-level as represented in the films and the Magic Mantle is chosen for conflict as to allow access to flame blade wands (lightsabres...) for battle.

The Force (Force Mantle)
Granted Power: While psionically focused, you gain a +1 deflection bonus to your Armor Class.
1.Detect Psionics (1): You detect the presence of psionics.
2.Know Direction & Location (1): You discover where you are and what direction you face.
3.Mindlink (1): You forge a limited mental bond with another creature.
4.Vigor (1): Gain 5 temporary hit points.
5.Psionic Suggestion (2): Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
6.Read Thoughts (2): Detect surface thoughts of creatures in range.
7.Telekinetic Maneuver (4): Telekinetically bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip your target.
8.Psionic Divination (4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed action.
9.Correspond (4): Hold mental conversation with another creature at any distance.
10.Remote Viewing (4): See, hear, and potentially interact with subjects at a distance.

Conflict (Magic Mantle)
Granted Power: You gain Use Magic Device as a class skill. if you purchased ranks in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device at the cross-class rare, you get additional ranks in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device as if it had always been a class skill for you. In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical, Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.
1.Inertial Armor (1): Tangible field of force provides you with +4 armor bonus to AC.
2.Offensive Precognition (1): Gain +1 insight bonus on your attack rolls.
3.Defensive Precognition (1): Gain +1 insight bonus to AC and saving throws.
4.Offensive Prescience (1): Gain +2 insight bonus on your damage rolls.
5.Hustle (3): Instantly gain a move action.
6.Psychic Containment (3): Temporarily disallow the use of psionics for a single creature.
7.Touchsight (3): Your telekinetic field tells you where everything is.
8.Schism (4): Your partitioned mind can manifest lower-level powers.
9.Energy Adaptation (4): Your body converts energy to harmless light.
10.Psychic Crush (5): Brutally crush subject's mental essence, reducing subject to -1 hit points.

The Light Side (Communication Mantle)
Granted Powers: While psionically focused, you gain a +2 competence bonus on Diplomacy checks and can use the Diplomacy skill more quickly and skillfully than others. When making a rushed Diplomacy check as a full-round action, you take only a -5 penalty on the check.
1.Empathy (1): You know the subject's surface emotions.
2.Bestow Power (2): Subject receives 2 power points.
3.Empathic Transfer (2): Transfer another's wounds to yourself.
4.Sustenance (2): You can go without food and water for one day
5.Serenity (2): Pacify a creature and stop it from fighting.
6.Restore Extremity (5): Return a lost digit, limb, or other appendage to subject.
7.Psionic Restoration (5): Restores level and ability score drains.
8.Psionic Revivify (5): Return the dead to life before the psyche leaves the corpse.
9.Suspend Life (6): Put yourself in a state akin to suspended animation.
10.True Metabolism (8): You regenerate 10 hit points/round.

The Dark Side (Death Mantle)
Granted Powers: You can expend your psionic focus to kill a dying creature, as the death knell spell.
1.Crisis of Breath (3): Disrupt subject's breathing
2.Death Urge (4): Implant a self-destructive compulsion.
3.Mindwipe (4): Subject's recent experiences wiped away, bestowing negative levels.
4.Energy Current (5): Deal 9d6 damage to one foe and half to another foe as long as you concentrate.
5.Crisis of Life (7): Stop subject's heart.
6.Insanity (7): Subject is permanently confused.
7.Mind Seed (8): Subject slowly becomes you.
8.Bend Reality (8): Alters reality within power limits.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 01:27:25 PM »
An ardent/swordsage mix could make an awesome "evil jedi". I have a thread on optimizing one here, if you want to take a peak at it.
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SolEiji

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Re: Evil Jedi
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 09:20:05 PM »
Edited original post.  Using Tashalatora to get flurry with a short sword (alternate monk weapon, Dragon).  Though it's thematic, it just kills me to use the sword when either unarmed or Claws of the Beast would do a lot more damage.  Any suggestions to up sword damage?

A short sword able to flurry?  Then you need the Sun Blade, specifically the cheap 3000g version from Castle Ravenloft.  It's a bastard sword you can now flurry, and the whole "sun" blade makes me think it's easily made of light.
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