Optimizing a Monkly druid shapeshifting thing.

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, so it doesn't have a whole lot of monk in it. But I still think it's pretty decent. Build goes more or less like this:

Monk1/Druid6/Fist of the Forest3/Warshaper5/Sacred Fist 5

The basic premise of this build is to somewhat optimize monk-related damage by dipping into a shapeshifting druid. This particular build has a distinct lack of pounce because I originally made it for a feral catfolk (DM is ignoring up to 2 LA), but that's nothing a level of Barbarian can't fix.

However, something really ticks me about this build. It doesn't sound good enough for some reason -- part of it is the fact that Sacred Fist is tacked at the end, and it's really subpar as a choice for this "Drunk", as I call it. Also, because I'm not very familiar with Druid spells, I don't know at which spell levels they stop getting good buffs. And then there's the fact that entry requirements for Fist of the Forest and Sacred Fist eat about 4 feats, of which only two are remotely useful (Combat Reflexes and Power Attack, specifically). This build isn't meant to be a primary spellcaster, either. Skills for a regular basher are not THAT much more important, with the due exception of Spot and Listen, which you should be able to work on without much trouble (getting into Sacred Fist requires you to have 8 ranks in Religion, which means you have cross-class ranks for breakfast along this build unless you're human and took Able Learner).

I also realize that there is an alignment conflict that would originally prevent this combo unless you went with Chaos Monk or something, but that's okay; dropping out of monk just means you can't gain more monk levels, not that you can't improve your unarmed strikes. 

Feat selection:
1:Power Attack
3:Combat Reflexes
6:Endurance
9:Improved Natural Attack (or whatever else you want)
12:Combat Casting
15:Free?
18:Free?

But I'm accepting suggestions. How do we make this guy deadlier?

[Braithwaite]

Best would probably be Monk 1, Druid 5, FoTf1, Druid 13.

Druids stop getting good buffs at level 17. Shapechange will blow your unarmed strike damage way past anything Sacred fist+warshaper will do.

If you really don't want to be in animal form all the time, or DM doesn't allow shapechange, a build like Monk 1, Druid 5, Natures warrior 5, Fist of the forest 1, Master of Many forms 3, Druid 5 more will also probably give better unarmed strike damage than your build, after you wildshape into a treant or huge giant.

[Ubernoob]

Try it like this:
Chaos Monk (full bab!) 1/ SS Druid 8/ FotF 3/ Warshaper 4/ SS Druid + 4

Actually, Dropping warshaper for more druid nets almost the same stuff plus spells.

Chaos Monk 1/ SS Druid 4/ FotF 3/ SS Druid +12

Simply take superior unarmed strike.

[Kuroimaken]

Hmmm. Couple of things I don't really understand.

Best would probably be Monk 1, Druid 5, FoTf1, Druid 13.

Why only 1 level of Fist of the Forest? Uncanny Dodge is good, Feral Trance 2/day isn't half bad, and the unarmed damage increase is nothing to sneeze at either (specially if you pay attention to this tidbit of description):

If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.

This allows you to deal more unarmed strike damage earlier. Combined with a Monk's belt, then, it starts getting ridiculous.

Druids stop getting good buffs at level 17. Shapechange will blow your unarmed strike damage way past anything Sacred fist+warshaper will do.

I'm trying to avoid indulging my cheese habit, thanks. Besides, I'm not good with picking forms for Shapechange.

Actually, Dropping warshaper for more druid nets almost the same stuff plus spells.

That may be true, but I like Warshaper better. Like I said, this guy isn't built around spellcasting. Druid was more of a means to an end and that end was getting the ability to change forms. But that's a nice build too; it's just not what I'm looking for at the moment, though. More bashy, less spellcastey. Basically, I want this guy to work more with shapeshifting as a secondary focus, and damage as a primary focus. Spells are tertiary for all I care.

[Ubernoob]

Druid gets the form upgrades.  Every 4 levels you get +4 str, improved AC, and more size.  It comes out almost perfectly even with 4 levels of warshaper *and* grants casting.

[Chemus]

+1 on shapeshift druid variant (from DMG II? Aha! PHB II, p39):

Unlimited uses. The shapes taken are immaterial to the features granted (as any polymorph should rightly be) so are just flavor. Plus you don't seem to be interested in casting. Since you can't cast while in any of the forms it's a good class ability that is less opportunity costly, as has been said.

[Braithwaite]

Hmmm. Couple of things I don't really understand.

Why only 1 level of Fist of the Forest? Uncanny Dodge is good, Feral Trance 2/day isn't half bad, and the unarmed damage increase is nothing to sneeze at either (specially if you pay attention to this tidbit of description):

Feral trance, as written, is a supernatural ability which does not say it is a move or swift or free action, so RAW it is a standard. That makes it worse than most druid buffs. I agree with you on how it SHOULD work, but it doesn't RAW.

An unarmed damage increase is probably 1 point of average damage, maybe 2. Lets say you have an enlarge item and give you the benefit of the doubt and say its giving you an entire extra d6, thats 3.5 damage.

Bite of the Werebear is +16 strength. Thats +8 damage, +8 to hit, and a range of other joy. Heck, quickened bite of the weretiger with a level 9 druid slot beats the entire FoTf line except for the + Con to AC.

[Kuroimaken]

Feral trance, as written, is a supernatural ability which does not say it is a move or swift or free action, so RAW it is a standard. That makes it worse than most druid buffs. I agree with you on how it SHOULD work, but it doesn't RAW.

An unarmed damage increase is probably 1 point of average damage, maybe 2. Lets say you have an enlarge item and give you the benefit of the doubt and say its giving you an entire extra d6, thats 3.5 damage.

Bite of the Werebear is +16 strength. Thats +8 damage, +8 to hit, and a range of other joy. Heck, quickened bite of the weretiger with a level 9 druid slot beats the entire FoTf line except for the + Con to AC.

Well, I see your point about Feral Trance, but not about the rest of that REALLY short class. Besides, if I cared about buffing myself up the wazoo with Druidic magic I'd go Druid20. Everyone's already stablished CoDzilla is the ruler of all but Pun-Pun, but I want a build with flavor and functionality that isn't likely to get me slapped on the face.

Unlimited uses. The shapes taken are immaterial to the features granted (as any polymorph should rightly be) so are just flavor. Plus you don't seem to be interested in casting. Since you can't cast while in any of the forms it's a good class ability that is less opportunity costly, as has been said.

Yeah, but I dunno... I just don't care much for the latter forms, I guess. At most, Forest Avenger or something, but that's it.

[Braithwaite]

Well you Did ask about optimization and then about good druid buffs. Play what you want. I just answered what works better for the build.

[Kuroimaken]

Well you Did ask about optimization and then about good druid buffs. Play what you want. I just answered what works better for the build.

Hmmm, that's true. I guess I should have phrased my request better. Anyone knows a good kinda-sorta monkly class that advances divine spellcasting or shifting, then?

[Bauglir]

Take one level of the Druid variant in Unearthed Arcana that substitutes a bunch of Ranger and Monk stuff for Wildshape, then use Wildshape ranger to get your wildshaping. Combine with the Druidic Avenger variant to get Rage (although no Pounce unless you can convince your DM to let you give up the Fast Movement from Druidic Avenger (which is "as the Barbarian")). You'll be one level behind there, but ranger will give you a slightly better BAB, buff your saves a bit, and so forth. That might work for you.

[Caelic]

Weird.  I just mentioned a build along these lines elsethread.  My own project along these lines:

Wildshape Ranger 5/Monk 4/Master of Many Forms 7/FotF 4

Nowhere near as powerful as a build that starts with Druid (what is?)  On the other hand, I think it's a purer build for the idea of shapeshifting unarmed damage maven, and it has the advantage of being able to use Ascetic Hunter.

There are tweaks possible to this--Warshaper in place of some of the FotF levels comes to mind immediately.

[Kuroimaken]

Weird.  I just mentioned a build along these lines elsethread.  My own project along these lines:

Wildshape Ranger 5/Monk 4/Master of Many Forms 7/FotF 4

Nowhere near as powerful as a build that starts with Druid (what is?)  On the other hand, I think it's a purer build for the idea of shapeshifting unarmed damage maven, and it has the advantage of being able to use Ascetic Hunter.

There are tweaks possible to this--Warshaper in place of some of the FotF levels comes to mind immediately.

Awww, if I knew about the Ranger shapeshifting variant I'd have stayed away from druid.

The ranger variant is limited by times per day though, isn't it?

[Chemus]

Assuming Shapeshift druid variant, the Wildshape ranger gives up the same things, so I think that the answer is no. But it's not perfectly canon.

[Caelic]

Wildshape ranger uses Wildshape, not Shapeshift; can't get into MoMF without Wildshape.  You wind up with about eight uses per day, though, which should be plenty.

[SorO_Lost]

No comment on books so about how me commenting on Shiba Protector (AO)?
Wisdom modifier to attack AND damage as a single level dip. It will require another two feats though...

Other ideas;
Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) gives +4 to your monk level for unarmed damage.
Snap Kick (ToB) for an extra unarmed attack on both standard & full-round attacks.
Circle kick (S&F) lets you double your unarmed attack output, but only if your fighting more than one foe at once.

[Kuroimaken]

No comment on books so about how me commenting on Shiba Protector (AO)?

Hmmm. Shiba Protector is from OA(and thus 3.0), but admittedly there isn't anything excluding setting that would prevent its use.

[Feyd]

Vow of poverty works well with shapechanging.

[Kuroimaken]

Vow of poverty works well with shapechanging.

Vow of poverty works with anything that doesn't require equipment, but it requires you to be exalted, which is way too much of a hassle for me. Still noteworthy, though.

[Ubernoob]

Vow of poverty works well with shapechanging.

Vow of poverty works with anything that doesn't require equipment, but it requires you to be exalted, which is way too much of a hassle for me. Still noteworthy, though.

It's not actually that strong.  Take off the bonus feats and it would be pretty even as just an ACF for equipment (needing no feats to reap the benefits, just sacrificing wealth).