Odd racial gestalt idea

[RobbyPants]

I had an odd idea a bit ago about combining UA's racial paragon classes and gestalt rules.  The idea occurred to me when talking with a friend about having race play a somewhat larger part for a character.  This isn't what he was talking about, but what the hell?

Idea:
Your first three levels are gestalt with any class(es) you would normally take and your race's three paragon levels.  Forth level and beyond are simply nomral.


What does this mean?
Basically, your first three levels will be a power up compared to normal games, in almost any situation.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  It also makes things like gishes playable right off the bat at low levels.

Sadly, the power level tapers off after that point depending on how you build the character.


Odd side-effects:
This makes casting have a bigger part for many characters.  For example, if you take your first level as wizard as a human, you get +1 caster level for free at levels 2 and 3, which frees you up to take whatever the hell you want for those two levels.  Some fighter-type levels can make you more tough.  Cleric levels increase your spell list (handy for wands).  This also makes things like orc and half-orc paragon nice for casters in that you can get full BAB and decent Hit Dice while being a caster up the other side.

Oddly, paragons like orc and half-orc will get very little extra benefit from fighter-type classes, which will make orc and half-orc fighters more rare.  Also, if you make something like a half-orc wizard, you end up with good HD and a BAB of +3 at 3rd level as a full caster, but your BAB won't increase to +4 until level 8, so the taper effect might make those levels seem more dull.

Certain other things work out quite nicely.  This actually makes Mystic Theruge worth considering.  If you take a 2/3 caster paragon, you can end up as something like Wiz 3/Clr 2 (or the other way around) at level 3.  With a one level dip into the other class, you can meet the prereqs at level 4 and you only have to lose one caster level.


Potential Developments:
This could also be a nice way to make low LA races into paragon classes similar to the Savage Species progressions, except that each level grants a HD.  They'd have to be house-ruled, but it could be a fun way to allow in some more powerful races.

[Havok4]

That does look quite good, and it would make for more interesting opportunities for pretty much all characters. It does cement the humans as being the best at absolutely everything, but it was like that before anyway.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I was thinking about that.  These rules would probably be better with new gestalt classes, but I'm too lazy to do that right now.

Here's another thought.  How exactly should I handle the change from gestalt to normal at 4th level?  I can see two ways of doing it:

1) Use normal gestalt rules for each stat (BAB, HD, saves, etc) on each side, but one side never gets better after 3rd level, so eventually, you'll likely be using your normal class for all of your stats.  For example: a wizard 9//orc paragon 3 would have a BAB of 4, base Fort and Ref of 3, and base Will of 6.  All of these stats are greater or equal to the orc paragon stats, so by this point, the paragon will have little or no effect on these stats.

2) Use the normal gestalt rules for each stat for the first three levels, and stack on top of that from 4th level and beyond.  Don't double-count the initial +2 save bonus for any class.  This makes the paragon class more important for determining these stats throughout the character's career.

Just to illustrate this, let's look at a wizard 5//orc paragon 3 with both scenarios:

1) Wizard 5 provides BAB +2, Fort + 1, Ref + 1, Will + 4.  Orc paragon 3 provides BAB +3, Fort + 3, Ref + 1, Will + 1.  So, this 5th level character would have BAB +3, Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +4.  This character's BAB won't increase to +4 until level 8 and his Fort won't increase to +4 until level 12 (assuming he stays straight wizard).

2) First we figure out the gestalt rules to figure the first 3 levels.  Wizard 3 provides BAB +1, Fort + 1, Ref + 1, Will + 3.  Orc paragon 3 provides BAB +3, Fort + 3, Ref + 1, Will + 1.  So, this 5th level character would have BAB +3, Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +3.  So the 3rd level stats would be BAB +3, Fort +3, Ref +1, WIll +3.  Next, we add two more wizard levels on top of that*.  Two wizard levels would add BAB + 1, Fort + 0, Ref + 0, Will + 1, for a total of BAB +4, Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +4.  This route seems far more complicated to me, for relatively little gain.  It will, however, allow for a smoother advancement after 3rd level.



* I guess the best way to calculate these bonuses would be to take the class level and subtract any taken during the first three levels.  So the example above, 5 - 3 = 2, so we look at the stats of a 2nd level wizard to determine what's added on top of the 3rd level gestalt stats.  Because we already counted the +2 Will bonus a wizard gets at 1st level, we have to subtract 2 from the Will value listed on the table for a level 2 wizard.  So, at 10th level, we add the stats of a 7th level wizard (10 - 3 = 7) to the level 3 gestalt base, again, subtracting 2 from a level 7 wizard's Will.  So this would add BAB + 3, Fort + 2, Ref + 2, Will + 3 (not 5) to the gestalt base.

Multiclassing isn't so bad.  Again, what we're trying to avoid is counting the +2 bonus to a save for any class more than once while allowing for continued advancement.  So if after 3 Wizard//Orc Paragon levels we take 2 levels of fighter, we add BAB +2, Fort + 3, Ref + 0, Will +0.  We add the full Fort bonus of +3 because this character does not yet have any fighter levels.

Had the character been something weird like Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Fighter 1//Orc Paragon 3, any wizard, cleric, or fighter levels added on afterward would not gain the +2 Fort and/or Will granted by the class at 1st level.  Adding something like rogue, however, would grant the full +2 Ref from 1st level because there are no rogue levels in the first three gestalt levels.

Confused yet?


Wow this post got long!  So, if you're still with me, which route do you prefer?  The simple route which has the potential for slow advancement form levels 4 - 9, or the complicated gestalt stacking advancement?

[PhaedrusXY]

Umm... what? I don't think you're interpreting gestalt the right way. You don't compare the total bonus on each side at each level, you compare the incremental increase. So even using method 1, the wiz 3/orc 3's BAB would increase to +4 at 4th level. In table form, it would look like this:

wiz//orc
0  //  1  =  1
1  //  1  =  1+1
0  //  1  =  2+1
1          =  3+1


For your second method, it sounds like you're talking about using partial BAB and save progression.

[RobbyPants]

I know normally you don't, but you also normally don't stop taking a gestalt progression after 3rd level.  It's uncharted territory!  Although I'm not certain that you're supposed to take the increment at each level.  Otherwise you end up with stupid bullshit like Ftr 1/Sor 19//wiz 20 having a BAB of 20.  That makes no sense.  Of course, the problem with the gestalt rules is they're so poorly written that no one actually knows how they work.

That being said, until this morning, I had considered doing option 1 by default anyway.  I just noticed the potential for four or five levels with little stat gain.

[Prime32]

Consider granting the paragon class benefits at lvs 5, 10 and 15. Or add the hp of the paragon class to your normal hp rather than taking the better of the two sides at that level. Maybe grant the option to advance manouvers rather than casting (scrap the line that says you can't advance an ability you don't have).

I know normally you don't, but you also normally don't stop taking a gestalt progression after 3rd level.  It's uncharted territory!  Although I'm not certain that you're supposed to take the increment at each level.  Otherwise you end up with stupid bullshit like Ftr 1/Sor 19//wiz 20 having a BAB of 20.  That makes no sense.  Of course, the problem with the gestalt rules is they're so poorly written that no one actually knows how they work.

The way I would look at it is:

• Your first level is fighter//wizard, which grants d10HD, full BAB and two good saves.
• Your remaining levels are sorcerer//wizard, which grant d4HD, poor BAB and one good save.

So you'd basically have the same BAB/saves as a non-gestalt Ftr 1/Sor 19.

[RobbyPants]

The problem with the gestalt rules is that, as printed, do not mention multiclassing whatsoever.  This could mean anywhere from that it's implicitly forbidden to it's allowed and you get to make up the rules so long as your DM lets you.  Really, given a literal reading, I can see three interpretations:

1) "average"
This is what I typically see done.  You run up a separate total from each side and apply the highest total to the character.  This is pretty multiclassing friendly.

2) Permissive
This is the crazy-town way where you literally look at what changes each level.  This lets Ftr 1/Sor 19//Wiz 20 have a BAB of +20 because BAB changes each level.

3) Restrictive
This way really says "don't multiclass if you want to."  This literal reading says you get each bonus by class, not side.  So Ftr 4/Bbn 4//Wiz 8 would have a BAB of +4 because each class only provides +4 BAB.  So you pretty much never multiclass under this model unless you have to.


But yeah, those rules are not spelled out at all, and no one really knows how they're supposed to work.  Thanks designers.  I'm assuming the "average" case for the optional rule suggested in this thread.

[veekie]

Umm... what? I don't think you're interpreting gestalt the right way. You don't compare the total bonus on each side at each level, you compare the incremental increase. So even using method 1, the wiz 3/orc 3's BAB would increase to +4 at 4th level. In table form, it would look like this:

wiz//orc
0  //  1  =  1
1  //  1  =  1+1
0  //  1  =  2+1
1          =  3+1


For your second method, it sounds like you're talking about using partial BAB and save progression.

Odd, me and most people I've played with use the "sum everything on both sides and take the better approach". Hadn't even heard of that particular interpretation before.

[JaronK]

Gestalt should ALWAYS be played with Fractional BAB.  It has serious issues otherwise.  Likewise, fractional saves should be used.  Additionally, you should consider how class abilities progress... a Rogue, for example, gets +1d6 sneak attack at level one, and +.5 sneak attack every level after that (you only actually add a die when you hit an integer value of dice).  If you do it that way, it's all nice and clear.

I think this idea is solid enough, since everyone's going to get it, but it does make casters stronger (mostly by making a lot of gish classes trivially easy to qualify for) without really doing a heck of a lot for melee types.  It also might enforce race/class combos... for example, if a paragon level gives you +Bard casting, pretty much everyone of that race would be a bard.  That's kind of annoying.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, it does make Gnome Paragon kind of lack luster.  I mean, you could just be a sorcerer or something and skip the bard levels, but you could get the same Cha bonus as a human and get some cooler abilities.

Would it be too crazy to allow +caster level paragons to give you effective casting levels, even if you didn't have levels in that class in the first place?  So gnome would be +2 bard levels regardless of whatever else you took.  Of course, that doesn't sound so bad, but then it makes classes like Human sound so much better (+2 of whatever you want).  Ugh.

[Surreal]

I had a similar idea that I experimented with briefly. Instead of going gestalt with the paragon classes, I simply gave the paragon classes as a bonus. The character had all the stat gains, but for the purposes of feats/PrCs/etc, only regular class levels counted, and casting gains from the paragon levels only added to caster level (I might have tweaked that later, I don't remember). It made for more surviveable characters at level 1. It also allowed for some of the low LA races that never get played (hobgoblins, gnolls, etc) to come in, just drop the LA and give them 3 hd, done.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I liked the possibility of making other races more playable.