Author Topic: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF  (Read 5781 times)

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S_Jerusalem

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Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« on: May 17, 2010, 03:12:20 AM »
15th level, going to 20-22ish. One Flaw, no ToB or Realms.

My basic shell is: Ranger 5 (UA, WS Variant), Master of Many Forms 7

From there what I am looking at is Monk 1-2 (I'm pretty sure this is good, both for Imp.Grapple, and iterative UAS +secondary natural attacks), and some number of Nature's Warrior for WS progression and full BAB, plus the DR3 and Constrict-effect are nice.

Looking at this, if I take 2 Monk levels by 15: R5/MoMF7/M2/NW1 I can have:

1:Alertness
H:Power Attack
F:Combat Expertise
3:Imp. Bull Rush
4: Champion of the Wild Ranger sub: Imp. Trip
6:Leap Attack
9:Shock Trooper
12:Multiattack
M1: Imp Grapple
M2: Combat Reflexes
15: Robilar's Gambit

Are the levels of Monk worthwhile over the levels I am looking at? Any better suggestions for feats in the build?

I can basically see two different paths that could be cut: 1) M2 and the whole Robilar's Gambit angle 2)Ditching the Shock Trooper tree for 2-3 other feats, possibly Imp. Multiattack, INA, something of that nature. Can you all see something better?

Also, assuming L22 at end, likely: R5/MoMF10/NW5/M2 Would that be correct? I'm currently unsure on how useful the last 3 lvls of MoMF are. Dragon/Garg WS is pretty nice, but those could be a few levels of warshaper, though that further cuts into my HD cap.

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 08:59:40 AM »
Since you're going Wildshape Ranger you might want to go Fist of the Forest for Con to AC. If you go Dwarf you could also get Deepwarden for Con to AC. This will give your forms excellent AC's.

Then Monk for Wis to AC is good if you have a decent Wis.
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S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 03:38:48 PM »
Good point. I have pretty good stats to work with, so I could benefit from both CON&WIS to AC.

FoF was something I had in the back of my mind... though I will have to delay Robilar's, or cut down on my Shock Trooper tree to fit the extra feat in to qualify. Maybe cut Leap Attack, and pick it up at 18 instead... Robilar's is probably the easiest cut, just subbing out M2 for FoF1.

How good is Robilar's in a build like this? I have really only used it first-hand with a chain fighter, though it seems the same would apply here being able to get obnoxious reach and/or really high DEX with WS.

Havok4

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 04:17:42 PM »

In a shapeshifter build like this robilar's is good when combined with knockback (RoS), to keep your enemies from full attacking you after you headless charge them. Also knockback shares prerequisites with shock trooper which is nice. If you decide to go that route you might be okay dropping combat expertise and improved trip. This would free up some feats which you could spend on the great fortitude for FotF and knockback. You might want to see if you can fit multiattack in there somewhere. I have a similar build I have been kicking around for a while but that is based on warblade and warshaper while using shapehsifter to qualify for MoMF.

S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 04:46:36 PM »
I've got the Multiattack in there.

I would actually love to take Knockback, but it may take some convincing of my DM since I couldn't qualify for it normally. Maybe if we say it will only function when I am in Large(er) size. I know he will let me take Multiattack, since it just makes sense. I agree, though, if I can get him to approve Knockback, Imp. Trip is may be unnecessary.

Havok4

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 05:25:51 PM »
If you can take multiattack there are no rules issues with you taking knockback as you can be large size all day by that point. You would lose the benefit of the feat if you reduced yourself to medium size again. I did not see your multiattack choice there.

Ithamar

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 08:24:22 PM »
Don't take Monk.  The feats are nice, but just use a Monk's Belt to get WIS to AC.  Frankly, Warshaper is fantastic.  You really only need 12 wild shaping levels to get the ultimate combat form:  War Troll.  Get at least 2 levels of Warshaper, though 3 is great if you can squeeze it in.  Consider a 1 level dip into Crusader and eventually grab a feat or item that gives you Thicket of Blades.
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Havok4

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 08:31:50 PM »
Warshaper is very good. But monk provides a lot of nice feats that are useful or required in this build, also improved unarmed strike lets him make a full attack of unarmed strikes in addition to his normal natural attacks.

Ithamar

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 08:54:11 PM »
Monk is restrictive on the alignment and not all that helpful.  Use a Monk's Belt and take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat if you're that worried about it.  If you're insistent on monk, at least take the Overwhelming Attack Monk variant.  Better yet, take 2 levels of the Unarmed Swordage.  If you take them later on in the build, your initiator level will be high enough to snag some 3rd or 4th level manuevers.
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S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 11:35:05 PM »
I would love to take 2 of Unarmed Swordsage, unfortunately, as stated, no ToB/Bo9S.

The one-level dip is mostly for the iterative attacks, with bonus feat that I would like tacked on. It makes no difference if I take Overwhelming Attack Monk if I am taking all of the feats anyway. If I cut Robilar's that might be a different story. L2 of monk also provides Evasion, of which I am uncertain of its value, REF may be the weakest in a build like this.

If I am to take FoF, not dipping monk seems wasteful. Why should I miss out on 2 feats that I want for that single level?

I have been thinking on the sweet spot for WS HDs, though. Warshaper is looking more appealing as I do. My final may have a mix of FoF1/NW1-3/Warshaper1-3.

Havok4

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 11:50:19 PM »
What is NW again?
Edit: nevermind natures warrior, duh.

Ithamar

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 04:27:11 PM »
Completely missed the no ToB bit.  So yeah, I guess Monk is your best bet.
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S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 05:24:40 PM »
No prob. Happens all the time to my posts. One of my regular DMs has one of those illogical aversions to ToB...  :banghead

bobtheapple

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 07:24:41 PM »
Since you're going Wildshape Ranger you might want to go Fist of the Forest for Con to AC. If you go Dwarf you could also get Deepwarden for Con to AC. This will give your forms excellent AC's.

Then Monk for Wis to AC is good if you have a decent Wis.

Before you take any levels of Fist of the Forest for a build that will see actual play, take a good long look at Primal Living, and ask yourself "Will this campaign be taking place entirely outdoors?"  Its not impossible to play in a dungeon setting, just rather difficult.

Also, if you don't want to be a dwarf, you can just take 3 levels of stoneblessed, which will give you +2 con that stays with you regardless of your form.


Monk is restrictive on the alignment and not all that helpful.  Use a Monk's Belt and take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat if you're that worried about it.  If you're insistent on monk, at least take the Overwhelming Attack Monk variant.  Better yet, take 2 levels of the Unarmed Swordsage.  If you take them later on in the build, your initiator level will be high enough to snag some 3rd or 4th level maneuvers.

Though I will agree with you on the restrictive alignment, the first two levels of monk are amazing for feat requirements if both UA and OA are allowed.  The full list of feats you can choose from is:
[spoiler]
1st Level: Dodge, Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Toughness, Stunning Fist, Underfoot Combat (Halfling only, CV Web Enhancement)
2nd Level: Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, Endurance, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip
Any Level: Roundabout Kick, Flying Kick, Fists of Iron, Eagle Claw Attack, Improved Grapple, Choke Hold, Grappling Block, Earth's Embrace, Dodge, Mobility, Prone Attack, Superior Expertise, Improved Trip, Defensive Throw, Great Throw, Pain Touch, Stunning Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood, Falling Star Strike, Unbalancing Strike, Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, Great Ki Shout, Iron Will, Ki Shout, Remain Conscious(Which a nice DM will let you switch for Die hard)
[/spoiler]

Most notable are feats that help you get into Mo9, but other feats are useful for a variety of builds.  Think of monk as a two level fighter that trades 1 BaB, armor usage, a shorter feat list and trades down to a d8 HD for flurry of blows, wis->ac, evasion, and increased unarmed damage.  At least for the first 2 levels, before it starts to suck... hard.

My suggestion would be that, as I pointed out in another thread, if OA is allowed 1 level of Shapeshifter Prc allows just about anything 7/Shapeshifter 1 to qualify for master of many forms, for instance:

Hengeyokai Fighter 4/Warshaper 3/Shapeshifter 1/MMoF 7

Can easily work, though there are probably better options (Sadly no ToB allowed, or I would suggest that, heh.)
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Wubs

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 08:18:45 PM »
Just for the Hengeyokai stub above... try...

Barbarian 1/ranger 1/ftr 2 (dungeon crasher variant).

Barbarian - Lion Totem (Complete Champion) for pounce

Ranger (Dungeonscape) Give up Track for Trapfinding

Fighter 2 (Dungeonscape) Give up lvl 2 feat for Dungeoncrasher.

The fighter 2 is the weakest point in the build, but still a good addition usually, unless you can swing high charisma for say hexblade or paladin.

Havok4

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 08:23:41 PM »
That is one of my favorite shape shifter builds. One of the best things about it is its flexibility. The primary issue is that that build will always be 3 levels behind the ranger build when it comes to MoMF progression. So at low levels and high levels the shapshifter build is better but in the level range of about 6-12 the ranger build has distinct advantages, provided you do not have something really nice as those first 4 levels, like warblade which is not an option for S_Jerusalem. But because this game is starting at level 15 which is when the shapeshifter build gets the most out of MoMF and has more warshaper and flexibility it is likely a better option.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 08:27:40 PM »
Magic of Incarnum allowed?
If so, Totemist 2 can be really useful for Wild Shape.
Soulmelds stay with you, while most Magic Items(without Wilding Clasps) will meld with your new form.

S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2010, 04:14:55 AM »
I just looked at Shapeshifter... and I may have to ask about OA material now.  :love

I'm not sure how familiar the DM is with MoI. I am moderately, and one of the other players is fluent (and happens to be his roomy), so that may be another option. I do love a Totemist dip...

Havok4

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Re: Help Op a Wild-Shape Ranger/ MoMF
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 01:48:11 PM »
Be sure to use the 3.5 update found in dragon magazine 318. It is what makes the shapeshifter so good as it makes the HD limit for forms equal to your character level. If you go that route the totemist dip will have to wait untill after level 15 due to how tight the build is for levels from 5-15. But extra natural attacks are always good in a build like this. For the build I have been kicking around I worked out the following feat list assuming the base is warblade. It gets better if you dip 2 levels of fighter in the first 4 levels. Mostly for dungeon crasher and a nice bonus feat.
1: Improved Bull Rush
1f:Endurance
1f:Alertness
3:Power Attack
6:Multiattack
9:Shock Trooper
12:KnockBack
15:Improved Grapple
16 B:Combat Reflexes
18:Roibair's Gambit