Author Topic: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO  (Read 9119 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« on: May 05, 2010, 11:42:18 PM »
The Story:
So I was doing some min-maxing on an actually playable Vampire. I needed an optimal way of becoming undead besides the ghost progression, necropolitan, or dry lich. Dread Champion was in my bag of tricks. So I wanted some early entry psionics.

Of course, I bust out the Prerequisite Handbook and Early Entry Handbook. Looking up psionics I see Midnight Augmentation as the main method.

The Problem:
I double-check the text when I'm calculating the ECL I need to get in (ECL3 entry, but I could probably push it to ECL2 if needed  :D) when I noticed that I didn't have a method for breaking the investable-essentia cap.

That was weird. I remember people not having that problem with much dirtier tricks. So I naturally looked to my Dirty Tricks Handbook Fixes to see if it had been entered and therefore I would have fixed it. Then all I would have to do is trace the part that's broken RAW to see what's up.

I hadn't fixed it. This was even stranger because I know I had taken a look at these things. Well that's okay. I'll just recreate the trick and then fix it, submitting the fix myself. But I didn't see it working. So I dug up this thread. The OP didn't explain any PP recharging, but did have this to say,
you never invest essentia into Midnight Metamagic
Which isn't true. The quotes are:
"is treated as if it had essentia invested" for psycarnum infusion
vs
"Once per day you can invest essentia into this feat" for azure talent, midnight augmentation, and midnight metamagic

The Reason the Trick Doesn't Work:
When we treat the midnight x as if it had essentia invested, what should it do? Well what happens when we normally invest essentia? It trips the 1/day limit. To assume otherwise is to read into the text more than is actually there. The 'it doesn't say I can't!' argument is all that's left. Sorry guys, it seems we are left with a RAW without NI pp.

I do see its possible for the 'as if' part being interpreted as NOT tripping the 1/day limit. But as far as I can tell, I can't rule out the interpretation of it still tripping that limit. And we all know what to do when faced with a 'the text isn't explicit' borked interpretation vs balanced interpretation...

Last thoughts on midnight augmentation vs midnight metamagic:
But the essentia cap still remains. 6 is the highest we can get with just feats. This is enough for the costliest of metamagics, but still doesn't meet midnight augmentation's theoretical -9pp max. 4 levels of incandescent champion will give us 7.  :(

These are the results of my actually-worth-it vampire optimization (I forgot how to direct it to a specific post, so check 'build 0')
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 08:49:16 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

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More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
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Sohala

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2010, 01:48:28 AM »
So...we are going to discuss if it actually uses up the 1/day, or...?
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2010, 03:36:02 AM »
yup, cuz I don't think it does -> a busted trick
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Brainpiercing

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 06:30:16 AM »
There was never any essentia "invested" in the first place, it's only "treated as if". Which is also why Psycarnum infusion works, and it works on all these incarnum feats multiple times per day. If it triggered the once per day limit it would NEVER work, because it is assume you actually DO fill those feats in the morning, and at that point you would never be able to use Psycarnum infusion anymore.

Now IMHO the way to make the trick not work is say that once you've used those PPs they're gone, you're left with a "debt" of PPs.

Sohala

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 11:45:31 AM »
Quote
Psycarnum Infusion
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Until the start of your next turn, one of your soulmelds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to its maximum essentia capacity. You don't gain any bonus essentia from this effect.

Quote
Midnight Augmentation
Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose a particular psionic power that you know. If you expend your psionic focus when manifesting that power, the power point cost to augment that power is reduced by a value equal to the invested essentia. This can't reduce the augmentation cost to less than 1. You can't invest more essentia in this feat than the chosen power's level, even if the maximum essentia capacity of this feat would normally be higher than that value. Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.

Okay, as we can see, Psycarnum Infusion says "had essentia invested in it" not "as if you had invested essentia in it". This would be the same as having a broken gas gage in a car, it may say it is full, so the light goes off, but you still haven't gone to the gas station to actually fill the tank. Also the act of investing essentia requires a swift action.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2010, 06:53:15 AM »
If it triggered the once per day limit it would NEVER work, because it is assume you actually DO fill those feats in the morning, and at that point you would never be able to use Psycarnum infusion anymore.
I don't follow.

Okay, as we can see, Psycarnum Infusion says "had essentia invested in it" not "as if you had invested essentia in it".
Ypu, I quoted it correctly. It's you blowing your focus on the psycarnum infusion that makes it have the invested essentia. If another character where donating this or somehow triggering it, I would see your point.

the act of investing essentia requires a swift action.
This would explain the as if usage. Obviously the psycarnum infusion bypasses that restriction.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Sohala

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2010, 12:06:34 PM »
If it triggered the once per day limit it would NEVER work, because it is assume you actually DO fill those feats in the morning, and at that point you would never be able to use Psycarnum infusion anymore.
I don't follow.
Also if it triped the once a day, saying that you actually invested something in it, the value would not change, even though Psycarnum Infusion says:
Quote
Until the start of your next turn
because of:
Quote
Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.

Quote
Okay, as we can see, Psycarnum Infusion says "treat as if it had essentia invested in it" not "treated as if you had invested essentia in it".
Ypu, I quoted it correctly. It's you blowing your focus on the psycarnum infusion that makes it have the invested essentia. If another character where donating this or somehow triggering it, I would see your point.
I know you quoted it correctly, but you have to actually read it. I expanded the quotes, the first is what is actually says, the second presents what it would probably say if it tripped the 1/day.

Quote
the act of investing essentia requires a swift action.
This would explain the as if usage. Obviously the psycarnum infusion bypasses that restriction.
So, it bypasses one restriction but not the other?
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"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2010, 04:39:49 PM »
If it triggered the once per day limit it would NEVER work, because it is assume you actually DO fill those feats in the morning, and at that point you would never be able to use Psycarnum infusion anymore.
I don't follow.
Also if it triped the once a day, saying that you actually invested something in it, the value would not change, even though Psycarnum Infusion says:
Quote
Until the start of your next turn
because of:
Quote
Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.
If we understand the 'as if' as still tripping the one per day, the value would still change... because psycarnum infusion says it would. The altered and invested for 24 hours part would apply, if the incarnum from psycarnum infusion lasted that long.

Quote
what it would probably say if it tripped the 1/day.
I already gave a reasoning for the wording:

Quote
So, it bypasses one restriction but not the other?
Yup, because whenever general mechanics rules conflict with a specific feat, the specific feat takes precedent. In the case of two feats with specific rules that do not reference each other or their effects, if there is any way to understand them as not conflicting, that is the default.

To understand psycarnum infusion as not tripping the 1/day essentia input limit would contradict the specific wording of the midnight x / azure talent feats. Nothing in psycarnum infusion is specific enough to warrant an override.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

McPoyo

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 05:16:49 PM »
Nothing in psycarnum infusion says it trips those limits in the first place, though. "Treated as" and "fill for free right then" aren't the same thing.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 05:26:03 PM »
It does not trip the limiter as you never invest the essentia in the feat to begin with. It is just treated as full without ever investing anything in it.

McPoyo

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2010, 05:53:19 PM »
Especially since the important part is you can only invest essentia into it once per day, unlike Soulmelds, that you can change on an every round basis if you desired. It forces you to lock in your investment to the feat once you do it.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Sohala

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2010, 07:45:43 PM »
The Reason the Trick Doesn't Work:
When we treat the midnight x as if it had essentia invested, what should it do? Well what happens when we normally invest essentia? It trips the 1/day limit. To assume otherwise is to read into the text more than is actually there. The 'it doesn't say I can't!' argument is all that's left. Sorry guys, it seems we are left with a RAW without NI pp.
There is no act of investing of essentia, Psycarnum Infusion allows you to treat a receptacle as if it had essentia in it equal to its capacity, but, there is no essentia ever gained from Psycarnum Infusion to invest into anything.

As far as I can tell you are getting hung up on the words "essentia invested". The meaning I get from it is that we are talking about any and all essentia in the receptacle, in the case of an untripped feat that would be none. So, looking at Psycarnum Infusion as a whole we treat the 0 invested essentia as the maximum capacity for the receptacle.
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"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2010, 12:06:48 AM »
Nothing in psycarnum infusion says it trips those limits in the first place, though. "Treated as" and "fill for free right then" aren't the same thing.
Nothing says it does. I have a rationale for why it should. The second sentence seems to agree with my interpretation though. Is that what you wanted?

as you never invest the essentia in the feat to begin with
??? "treated as if it had essentia invested" so yes the essentia is invested. If it isn't then the midnight x feats won't function at all (since there is no invested essentia to determine the -pp or free metamagic levels)

Especially since the important part is you can only invest essentia into it once per day, unlike Soulmelds, that you can change on an every round basis if you desired. It forces you to lock in your investment to the feat once you do it.
that first sentence is not grammatically correct within this thread's context, so I do not get any logical information from it (aka I don't understand what you are trying to say). The second sentence seems to dependent on the first. Um.. retry?

As far as I can tell you are getting hung up on the words "essentia invested".
Yes. You will have to be mores specific about what you meant after that, though

Sorry if I'm not understanding a lot of what is said, but I hope I was clear in the OP. I might require the same level of clarity in any answers, as a result.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

McPoyo

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2010, 12:10:52 AM »
Investing Essentia into something, and treating it like it had essentia invested, are two different things. The first case: There is actually essentia invested. The second case: There is no essentia invested, but you get to act like it actually is.

The feats, much like the items, only allow you to invest essentia one time each day.

Soulmelds allow you to invest essentia as many times a day as you wish, since you can change the amount of essentia invested every round, if you wished.

The feats have that 1/day limit so you do not just move essentia into the feats when it is most advantageous for one round, then put it back in your soulmelds. You are forced to deal with not having access to that essentia once you invest it into the feats.

Actually investing, versus acting like you invested essentia, is what we are arguing. They are two different things, as is set by precedent throughout all of 3.5. Therefor, you assertion is incorrect.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2010, 12:13:48 AM »
Small nitpick, McPoyo, but I don't recall a 1/day limit on items, just feats.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

McPoyo

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2010, 12:14:31 AM »
Isn't there one item that has the limit?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2010, 12:14:59 AM »
There might be, but it would be an exception if there is.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2010, 12:20:44 AM »
Investing Essentia into something, and treating it like it had essentia invested, are two different things. The first case: There is actually essentia invested. The second case: There is no essentia invested, but you get to act like it actually is.

The feats, much like the items, only allow you to invest essentia one time each day.

Soulmelds allow you to invest essentia as many times a day as you wish, since you can change the amount of essentia invested every round, if you wished.

The feats have that 1/day limit so you do not just move essentia into the feats when it is most advantageous for one round, then put it back in your soulmelds. You are forced to deal with not having access to that essentia once you invest it into the feats.

Actually investing, versus acting like you invested essentia, is what we are arguing. They are two different things, as is set by precedent throughout all of 3.5. Therefor, you assertion is incorrect.

MCPoyo, you are under arrest for Assaulting the English language and suspected Commacide.


Regarding Psycarnum Infusion: If it were meant to follow the 1/day restriction on Incarnum Feats, it would only be usable 1/day/Incarnum Feat you have (and would have a clause preventing you from using it twice on one feat). WotC may be bad, but they are not that bad.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2010, 12:24:54 AM »
Ah, well that does not effect my post, even were it a niche thing on the items.

Also, I have done no such thing to the Commas. I used them properly.

Maybe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:P
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Sohala

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Re: Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2010, 01:22:30 AM »
As far as I can tell you are getting hung up on the words "essentia invested". The meaning I get from it is that we are talking about any and all essentia in the receptacle, in the case of an untripped feat that would be none. So, looking at Psycarnum Infusion as a whole we treat the 0 invested essentia as the maximum capacity for the receptacle.
To me, "essentia invested" has the meaning of, the amount of essentia in the soulmeld, incarnum feat, class feature, or other incarnum receptacle. In the case of Midnight Augmentation, if we have not spent our once a day effect, the essentia invested in it is zero. Now we use Psycarnum Infusion to treat the zero essentia invested in Midnight Augmentation as if it were equal to the capacity of Midnight Augmentation. Midnight Augmentation still has zero essentia invested in it though.

as you never invest the essentia in the feat to begin with
??? "treated as if it had essentia invested" so yes the essentia is invested. If it isn't then the midnight x feats won't function at all (since there is no invested essentia to determine the -pp or free metamagic levels)

Quote
You don't gain any bonus essentia from this effect.
If there is nothing in the feat to begin with there is nothing actually in the feat after you use Psycarnum Infusion, though all bonuses from the feat are treated as if there its capacity was full.
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