Author Topic: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?  (Read 6897 times)

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weenog

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ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« on: May 02, 2010, 09:10:41 PM »
A guy I play with who currently runs a rogue 3/sorcerer 2/unseen seer 5 wants to replace his character.  After much stalling, waffling and wheedling I've finally got him nailed down to wanting to be a glass cannon in combat, and a corpse (er, sneak) out of it.  I'm a little too busy getting my focused conjurer 5/malconvoker 5 set up to be much use to him, but I can point him at this thread.  I don't need full builds but if you guys can provide some basic outlines to show him, that would be great.

Things of Note
  • The kid loves scalies.  Bonus points for kobolds or lizardfolk of some kind.
  • We fight an awful lot of constructs and undead, precision damage is essentially useless at this point.
  • He's not very good at planning ahead, so in the case of spellcasters, a preset spell list or recommendation of must-have spells would be a plus.
  • Anything that whiffs of cheese is either already house ruled out, or will get him smacked by the DM.
  • Psionics and anything Tome of Magic or Tome of Battle is out.
  • LA buyoff is okay.
  • Standard wealth (49k gp).
  • 28 point buy, or ability scores rolled by PHB standard 4d6 take 3.

Please help?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 09:25:01 PM by weenog »
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Solo

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 09:11:57 PM »
Quote
Anything that whiffs of cheese is either already house ruled out, or will get him smacked by the DM.
Would you enjoy his pain?

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 09:14:15 PM »
Quote
Anything that whiffs of cheese is either already house ruled out, or will get him smacked by the DM.
Would you enjoy his pain?
I'm playing a focused conjurer/malconvoker.  If I want his pain, I can collect it for myself.  :smirk

In seriousness, I don't want to get him booted out of the group or have his character rejected.  With three characters now set for replacement, this party reconfiguration is taking long enough without such extra speedbumps.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 09:23:54 PM »
I neglected to add, we generate ability scores by either 4d6 take 3 six times, or 28 point buy (and he'll be taking 28 point buy if he knows what's good for him).  Wealth by level is standard, so 49,000 gp.  Will edit first post to reflect this.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
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NiteCyper

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 09:27:17 PM »
(1) "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
(2) A "corpse" is a trap-finder, a "sneak" is a sneaker. Which are they?
(3) I'd never heard of a "corpse", nor names such as "Fop" or "Gimp", until "Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God" then never again heretofore. I censure their usage.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 09:50:38 PM by NiteCyper »
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weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 09:29:43 PM »
(1) "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
(2) A "corpse" is a trap-finder;
(3) A "sneak" is a sneaker;
I've been trying.  I joined this group at level 3, he was going to go rogue 5/assassin rest before I talked him into taking advantage of his kobold favoured class and getting into unseen seer via sorcerer instead (and explaining why took a painfully long time).

Regarding the corpse/sneaker bit, I just go by the qualifications in the guide to playing god, specifically this bit.
"Sneak ("The Corpse"): This guy sneaks ahead to scout the enemy's lair and finds and disarms traps for the group. Why do I call him the "Corpse"? - reread what he does again."
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 09:36:45 PM by weenog »
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

NiteCyper

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 09:38:44 PM »
I counsel that you read "Innovating Party Design: Method and Application" by Tleilaxu_Ghola. Why do I offer this link? Because it provides useful information. Concerning what? Party make-up. Why do I offer this link? Because you mention "party reconfiguration" and hint that you are basing party-roles off of those found in "Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God" which I believe is not as good as those defined in the thread of the link I have given. I also mark that the thread does not lead one to "A Player's Guide to Healing (And, why you will be Just Fine without a Cleric to heal)" by OneWinged4ngel.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:06:51 PM by NiteCyper »
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weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 09:40:34 PM »
Initially I suggested to him that he be human, start with Beguiler, and work his way into Mage of the Arcane Order, picking up Able Learner to be able to keep up on his trapfinding and mundane scouting abilities, but this was before he made up his mind that he wanted to be a glass cannon.  Is there a way of tweaking that slightly to be better at damage output (bearing in mind the high prevalence of undead and constructs) while still going in more or less the same direction?
http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-847381
Snuck that in while I was typing.  Holy crap that's ugly with the sblock function removed, but looks like some good useful information there.  Thank you.
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weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2010, 09:52:26 PM »
Our DM rather enjoys crush ceiling traps with gigantic footprints.  Those aren't the only ones that turn up, and for suspected traps with smaller AoEs, I can always summon a dead celestial monkey or use my summon elemental reserve feat to set it off on purpose, but I think sometimes we're going to need an actual trapfinder.  Besides, I don't want to spread myself too thin, I'm already going to have my hands full playing god in and out of combat as well as directing the summoned big stupid fighters.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

Littha

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 10:01:31 PM »
not sure about everyone else but reading that all i saw was:
Things of Note
  • The kid loves scalies.  Bonus points for kobolds or lizardfolk of some kind.
  • We fight an awful lot of constructs and undead, precision damage is essentially useless at this point.
  • He's not very good at planning ahead, so in the case of spellcasters, a preset spell list or recommendation of must-have spells would be a plus.
  • Anything that whiffs of cheese is either already house ruled out, or will get him smacked by the DM.
  • Psionics and anything Tome of Magic or Tome of Battle is out.
  • LA buyoff is okay.
  • Standard wealth (49k gp).
  • 28 point buy, or ability scores rolled by PHB standard 4d6 take 3.

Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer?

NiteCyper

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 10:03:14 PM »
I think sometimes we're going to need an actual trapfinder.  Besides, I don't want to spread myself too thin, I'm already going to have my hands full playing god in and out of combat as well as directing the summoned big stupid fighters.

My point being that, like the Healer or an HM-slave, no significantly active participant should unwillingly receive that job.

Simplification of my question: would you say they want to be a DPR and sneaky? The former expostulates the idea that they must be fragile as a "Glass Cannon".
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:18:55 PM by NiteCyper »
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weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2010, 10:17:27 PM »
He said he wanted something like his old character, but better.  When I pointed out he thought his old character was too scattered and asked him what, specifically, he wanted to focus on, his response was: "First is skills that are planned so they don't grow useless in the future, like search, disable device, UMD, and the like."

I think he wants to be a skillful guy in general and is reaching for trapfinding because it's hard to replace completely (he's already seen magic do that to every other skill we've ever depended on) and because he knows we'll probably need it.  If he can do corpse and sneak, great, but I think corpse is the higher priority, slightly.

Regarding combat, he's spent a lot of time feeling useless (even when he's helping us a lot with Enlarge Person, Fly, Benign Transposition) because all of his damage output comes from sneak attack d6s and he almost never gets to roll them.

Seems to me he wants job security on the skills side, and the opportunity to throw big flashy damage numbers around.  Glass cannon rather than big stupid fighter because he's seen how fast the DM goes through my 110+ hp, he knows better than to try to be attacked, even if he can survive it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:26:58 PM by weenog »
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

NiteCyper

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2010, 10:26:51 PM »
Idea: (Cloistered) Cleric, Kobold Domain, Wieldskill spell, Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell), Fiery Burst [Reserve] feat, Dragon's Tear optional spell component (Complete Mage).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:36:00 PM by NiteCyper »
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Kyprioth

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2010, 10:33:34 PM »
The player in question is me, I was asked to join, so I might as well help.

While I am keen on Reptiles, I'm fine with humans or other races. In fact, I think I might prefer human.
I'm not too ok with LA buyoff, though I guess I would be fine with a good reason.

Doing the whole 'corpse' problem isn't such a big deal, but as weenog has said the problem is feeling useless in combat.
Battlefield control isn't all I want to be doing, if it can be called that. When he did convince me to go into sorcerer/unseen seer, it was with some promise of improved damage output after all. It can't be helped that I must help as I do, as we lost our full sorcerer early on, and the other caster that was left had banned transmutation due to planning along that sorcerer; however, the fact that other two new characters are going in, one which is already decided another caster, could mean that I wouldn't have to worry about such things anymore and help in other ways. Damage output would be appreciated, though I'm sure some buffing would be good, as long as it isn't all I'm stuck doing.
Hopefully that makes sense and doesn't seem too stupid.

@NiteCyper: I'm not too keen on the Kobold domain, though I'll for sure be getting an offensive reserve feat at some point. Preferably the force needle one, though.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 11:48:24 PM by Kyprioth »

NiteCyper

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 12:21:02 AM »
Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment (Kobold)).
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2010, 12:33:59 AM »
@NiteCyper: I'm not too keen on the Kobold domain, though I'll for sure be getting an offensive reserve feat at some point. Preferably the force needle one, though.
Why not? It lets you be a full cleric that can actually find and disarm traps using skills. I think Nitecypher's suggestion was actually pretty decent.

If you can get the racial requirements waived, a kobold cloistered cleric/shadowcraft mage with the kobold domain should be all kinds of fun. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 12:40:35 AM »
@NiteCyper: I'm not too keen on the Kobold domain, though I'll for sure be getting an offensive reserve feat at some point. Preferably the force needle one, though.
Why not? It lets you be a full cleric that can actually find and disarm traps using skills. I think Nitecypher's suggestion was actually pretty decent.
He's away at the moment, but I asked him pretty much the same thing earlier in IRC and he remarked "rock to lava, that's a waste of a lvl 9 spell."

I suggested if we get there, he do that and I summon something fireproof and non-breathing to grapple enemies IN THE LAVA, didn't seem too thrilled with that idea.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

PhaedrusXY

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 12:43:33 AM »
@NiteCyper: I'm not too keen on the Kobold domain, though I'll for sure be getting an offensive reserve feat at some point. Preferably the force needle one, though.
Why not? It lets you be a full cleric that can actually find and disarm traps using skills. I think Nitecypher's suggestion was actually pretty decent.
He's away at the moment, but I asked him pretty much the same thing earlier in IRC and he remarked "rock to lava, that's a waste of a lvl 9 spell."

I suggested if we get there, he do that and I summon something fireproof and non-breathing to grapple enemies IN THE LAVA, didn't seem too thrilled with that idea.
That is just stupid. Pick something with a great 9th level spell for your other domain, like Planning for Time Stop (and free Extend Spell) or Time (for free Initiative and Time Stop), prepare that, and forget about the stupid Rock to Lava spell. And until then, you get to be a cleric with trapfinding.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 12:45:21 AM »
@NiteCyper: I'm not too keen on the Kobold domain, though I'll for sure be getting an offensive reserve feat at some point. Preferably the force needle one, though.
Why not? It lets you be a full cleric that can actually find and disarm traps using skills. I think Nitecypher's suggestion was actually pretty decent.
He's away at the moment, but I asked him pretty much the same thing earlier in IRC and he remarked "rock to lava, that's a waste of a lvl 9 spell."

I suggested if we get there, he do that and I summon something fireproof and non-breathing to grapple enemies IN THE LAVA, didn't seem too thrilled with that idea.
That is just stupid. Pick something with a great 9th level spell for your other domain, like Planning for Time Stop (and free Extend Spell) or Time (for free Initiative and Time Stop), prepare that, and forget about the stupid Rock to Lava spell. And until then, you get to be a cleric with trapfinding.
Good point.  There is a house rule in this game that clerics get only 1 domain naturally, but that's not as big a hurdle as I was initially thinking, additional domains from PrC or whatever are allowed.

I still think 20d6 fire damage/round plus pinned plus drowning is a nice way to say "Sit down and be quiet," though.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 12:48:38 AM by weenog »
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"That sounds like a victory to me."

Negative Zero

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Re: ECL 10 Glass Cannon/Corpse suggestions, please?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 12:49:20 AM »
@NiteCyper: I'm not too keen on the Kobold domain, though I'll for sure be getting an offensive reserve feat at some point. Preferably the force needle one, though.
Why not? It lets you be a full cleric that can actually find and disarm traps using skills. I think Nitecypher's suggestion was actually pretty decent.
He's away at the moment, but I asked him pretty much the same thing earlier in IRC and he remarked "rock to lava, that's a waste of a lvl 9 spell."

I suggested if we get there, he do that and I summon something fireproof and non-breathing to grapple enemies IN THE LAVA, didn't seem too thrilled with that idea.

I like Celerity Domain, too. Point is, anyway, by the time you're able to cast level 9s, it should be a cakewalk to dip Contemplative or something for another domain with a much better level 9.