Author Topic: Council of Wyrms game  (Read 4043 times)

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Thaosyr23

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Council of Wyrms game
« on: April 23, 2010, 06:57:32 PM »
I'm starting to run a all dragon pc game in Eberron with some special rules. (dragon HD + class lvls = 15, base LA will be ignored, templates will be added normally, no LA buyoff)

I wondering if anything incredibly broken can come of this, I only know 2 characters right now, a shadow dragon rogue/ shadow dancer and a 15hd red dragon.

I would also like some ideas for some good enemies for them, I know its going to be at least CR + 3-4, maybe more?

Anklebite

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 07:12:31 PM »
I'm starting to run a all dragon pc game in Eberron with some special rules. (dragon HD + class lvls = 15, base LA will be ignored, templates will be added normally, no LA buyoff)

I wondering if anything incredibly broken can come of this, I only know 2 characters right now, a shadow dragon rogue/ shadow dancer and a 15hd red dragon.

I would also like some ideas for some good enemies for them, I know its going to be at least CR + 3-4, maybe more?
use dragonslayer or that dragonlooter PrC. darkstalker feat is fun, and hide from dragons is entertaining.
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Havok4

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 07:15:42 PM »
Wizards with shivering touch perpared would make for irritating enemies but could be useful for making them think about tactics.
The number of dragon related material in DnD is equiled only by the number of dragon slaying material so just page through the player sections of the Draconomicon or Dragon magic and ideas should become apparent.
As for broken combos you would really just have to work out how the  balance works for your party and how you give out XP. Luck up tricks people pull with dragonwroght kobolds to get an idea of what actual dragon cheese would look like.
Also interaction with squishy mortals might be kind of hard so I might suggest giving your characters the alternate form feat from dragons of ebberon. Anyway good luck and it sounds like fun.

Widow

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 03:46:44 AM »
Brainstealer Dragon from Dragon magazine 337.  You guessed it, an illithid and a dragon rolled into one.  It has the full age categories and everything needed to be a full dragon along with extract and other illithaid goodies.  It gains psionics instead of sorceror spell casting.  Best of all, there is even a section in the text about brainstealer dragons of Eberron.  The very young category has the advantage of telepathy 100 feet.

Wyrmling 7HD (normally +5 LA)/ 8 Illithiad savant or Very Young 10HD (+5 LA)/ Illithid savant 5.

For the most brokeness, try eating a legacy champion (Weapons of Legacy Book) PrC class ability to advance another classes abilities.  A character with 10 levels of Legacy champion can advance the class features of one class by 8 levels.  So for instance you could go:

Very Young 10 HD/ Illithid savant 3/Telepath 1/ Thrallherd 1

Use the legacy champion to advance the illithid savant abilities to 10 and telepath to a 2.  Then with your ability to eat another class ability, repeat pushing Telepath to a 5 and thrallherd to 6.  You can then repeat a third time to get thrallherd to a 10 and telepath to a 9.  You can alway save a peice of the first legacy champion, raise him, and reeat him as necessary.  I am not going to comment on how possible this is, but you wanted to know the most broken path to power.  Even just getting to play the 10 HD/ Savant 5 would be a win.

Thaosyr23

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 09:32:13 AM »
that... is... AWESOME

thanks for the tips, getting some demonic dragonslayers in the mix is going to hurt them quite a bit. I found out one of the other characters, a silver crusader, He should be nearly invincible, especially with Wyrm of War for martial maneuver/stance.

Wyrm of War seems to be what everyone is taking so far. Free fighter feats help everyone out

CantripN

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 10:09:06 AM »
What, no Loredrake/other spellcasting Archetypes? Try a Steel Dragon with Loredrake, and you'll have a rather powerful PC. Temporal Drake is also nice.
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Akalsaris

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 10:42:35 AM »
I played in a similar game once - same rule of ~15HD and no LA.  Everyone else took class levels and was a kobold or wyrmling, I went straight for adult fang dragon =P  It was pretty fun!

Thaosyr23

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 11:44:31 AM »
What, no Loredrake/other spellcasting Archetypes? Try a Steel Dragon with Loredrake, and you'll have a rather powerful PC. Temporal Drake is also nice.

hey, i'm just the dm, let them play what they want to play

Nunkuruji

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 12:38:49 PM »
I don't think you have too much to worry about, as the first two you mentioned are both going to be primarily beatsticks and/or skillmonkeys. The Red Dragon is only going to even pick up 3rd level spells on his 16th HD. Dracolich and Vampiric Dragon might be able to be abused. Illithid Savants are just good fun :)

As for general spellcasting utility, they have the advantage of being able to innately use whatever wands they come across, as most dragons have both the wizard/sorc and cleric list available to them. (Shadow definitely does)

If their party needs a primary spellcaster, the best way to go about it is probably indeed a Steel Dragon wyrmling with class levels. They have the (or one of the) lowest HD-to-spellcasting prereqs, at 4HD = 1st sorcerer casting level and access to both the wiz/sorc and cleric spell lists. With the loredrake sovereign archetype, in giving up the cleric spell list, they become a 4HD = 3rd sorcerer casting level.

If none of the party develops a strong primary caster, then the party will have trouble with powerful well-prepared (your job) spellcasters. Their innate Spell Resistance will be easily bypassed by any CR appropriate enemy caster. Similarly they may have trouble with things that are resistant to their available energy types, for instance, a Wing-Grafted War Troll where none of the Dragon PCs have an acid breath.

There are several interesting monstrous tactical feats that the party may or may not make use of. I recently got a lot of entertainment out of harassing my PCs with Hover.

DavidWL

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 04:24:35 PM »
Not Terribly broken, but a tome dragon w/ loredrake would be quite good.

In general, I find it amusing that this is actually pretty balanced (because dragon class features tend to be so mediocre).

Best,
David

EDIT:  The previous poster is also right about the steel dragon.
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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DavidWL

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 04:49:26 PM »
Actually, the most powerful (given no LA), is, amusingly ...

A dragonwrought Kobold!  (Is this not the answer to all things)?

15 HD ->
Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold + ritual => CL 18 = 9th level spells.

Much better than the others ...

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 04:49:40 PM »
oops.  Ignore.
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Anklebite

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2010, 04:53:46 PM »
lol, triple post.
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Widow

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2010, 11:33:49 PM »
Actually, the most powerful (given no LA), is, amusingly ...

A dragonwrought Kobold!  (Is this not the answer to all things)?

15 HD ->
Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold + ritual => CL 18 = 9th level spells.

Much better than the others ...

Best,
David


At least until the Mind Flayer Dragon eats him and copies his ability with only 3 class levels.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 04:52:18 AM »
Not so much as true on the dragonwrought kobold. A White Dragonspawn Abomination has no LA, just smell penalties to it's hp/saves/skills  ;)
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Widow

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2010, 05:22:40 AM »
Not so much as true on the dragonwrought kobold. A White Dragonspawn Abomination has no LA, just smell penalties to it's hp/saves/skills  ;)

There is also the abomination template that can be added to the dragonspawn template in the Bestiary of Krynn.  It grants some random mutations you have to roll for at the cost of another +1 LA.  There are mutations that bump physical stats by 4, extra effective levels of sorc progression, and fast heal 3 to name the better ones.  It is a tough sell though since it has -4 to Int and Wis and you have to roll for the mutations.  On the bright side though, 96-100 on the percentiles are roll 2 more times.  Effectively there is no limit to the possible boost to caster level  :eh

SorO_Lost

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2010, 01:12:25 PM »
Just keep jumping off a cliff rerolling your character until you get what you want?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Nunkuruji

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2010, 02:17:26 PM »
Not Terribly broken, but a tome dragon w/ loredrake would be quite good.

In general, I find it amusing that this is actually pretty balanced (because dragon class features tend to be so mediocre).

Best,
David

EDIT:  The previous poster is also right about the steel dragon.


Looking over Tome Dragon, it might actually get ahead of things in the spellcasting department with the LA ignored.

Tiny Wyrmling Tome Dragon
3 HD
LA 5
Caster Level 3rd
11 SR
Arcane Sight
Precognition
Telepathy 100ft
-4 str, -2 con, +6 int, +4 wis, +2 cha
Alternate Form
Graceful Flight
Physical Frailty
Automatically knows all Sorcerer Conjuration and Divination Spells. Access to Knowledge Domain spells. (No access to the cleric list as far as I can see)


With LA ignored, by default the Tome Dragon is at 1:1 sorcerer casting progression. Throw in Loredrake, drop to d10s, and it is 2 levels ahead of standard sorcerer casting, 1 ahead of a wizard.

Moving up to Very Young Loredrake Tome Dragon, another +3HD for 6 HD total gains 5th level casting, and Free Metamagic +1 including no increase in metamagic time. That puts them right on par with an equal level wizard with some pretty sweet features and a stat array mod of  -2 str, +6 int, +6 wis, +4 cha. Pretty much ready to PrC into something right away. No matter how you slice it, those dragon HD are better than sorcerer levels.

With the exception of Shadow Miracles, you can even compete with Shadowcraft Mages in the spontaneous department.

Definitely the way to go for a competitive arcanist.

Havok4

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2010, 02:26:04 PM »
Making use of some of the most powerful options available to a dragon character and it is still only marginally better than a equivalent level wizard. That just does not seem right.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Council of Wyrms game
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2010, 09:10:05 PM »
Making use of some of the most powerful options available to a dragon character and it is still only marginally better than a equivalent level wizard. That just does not seem right.
Are you accusing Wizards of the Coast to be biased towards wizards over sorcerers? That's absurd!
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]