Author Topic: Barbarian -> Fighter -> Warblade? (I'd very much appreciate some help)  (Read 3683 times)

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Torvon

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Harro!

I'm pretty new to D&D3.5, in terms of months played, but read quite a bit in the last months. Have played around 30 other RPGs in the last 15 years.

I am looking for a bit of advice on my first character, who is level 3 at the moment. ???
I won't go too much into personality details, since I don't need any advice here. It's a big guy, tough, pretty fearless, but actually a rather nice chap. With a big dog. Very loyal, and I play him to be not the ... smartest one.

Group setup:
[spoiler](1) cleric, (2) mage/warlock, (3) rogue/scout, and (4) me. Since it was my first 3.5 char, the group decided I should start with a fighter.[/spoiler]

I'm level 3 now.
1- Barb - 1 feat, 1 human feat, 1 feat from flaw, 2 extra feats (from DM)
2- Fight - fighter feat
3- Fight - feat, fighter feat

I started reading and decided to go 1 level Barbarian (skills, rage, movement, pounce), and then fighter for life.

We had 2 extra feats from the start, and we get feats every odd level (3/5/7/...), that + my fighter bonus feats gave me a nice start.

Feats:
[spoiler]I'm running around with a Greatsword, and the feats I have are furious & powerful charge, tireless, weapon focus, extra rage, Imp. Bull Rush (to qualify for ... you already knew it, Shock Trooper), Power Attack & Cleave.
[/spoiler]

My stats:
[spoiler]STR 18+1
CON 16+2
INT 14
DEX 12
WIS 10
CHA 8[/spoiler]

I do nice damage as human fighter, at my current level - at least compared to the rest of the group.
[spoiler]My warlock buddy enlarges me (25GP per scroll, I buy them for him, it's quite worth it), and with a bit of rage here and a bit of Powerattack there, I do around 3w6(large gsword)+2w6(feat)+14(normal+PA) on a charge, and still some nice damage on a normal attack. Usually, the Cleave kills the next enemy. [/spoiler]

The character is basically rather fearless, and also takes insane damage due to very low AC (low Dex, medium armor, rage, enlarge, charge).

Now, you already see where this is going: Leap Attack & Shock Trooper for some additional Pewpew.

Going Warblade
[spoiler]Ok. Now, I started reading a bit here and there, and saw that the Warblade rocks so much more than my fighter. I love the idea of maneuvers and stances rather than getting a couple of feats now and then.

So, I thought about going Warblade from now on. My INT is 14, which isn't very good, but not the worst thing for a fighter/warblade, I guess. [/spoiler]

I read TOB carefully, and read through some Warblade stuff, but I still have some questions.

(1)
Is level 3 a good choice to start Warblading? My DM told me that in his world, 3*0.5 = 1.5, and since 1.5 is mathematically rather 2.0 than 1.0, he is giving me an initiator level of 2 for my 3 levels of barbarian/fighter. That means, on level 4, with my first level of Warblade, I'd start with Initiator Level of 3, allowing me already tier1 & tier2 maneuvers. Quite nice, I guess?

(2) Maneuvers & Stances
[spoiler]
What maneuvers / stances should I go for? My current weakness is ... AC. And flexibility. Charge and cleave is boring, except for those billions of dice I get to roll.
Now, I very much like the Raptor School (don't have the book right here, but I think that was the name). Lot's of jumping around, and since my character has crazy Strength, only wears medium armor (barbarian), and jump maxed, I want to make him a jumper. I guess it's not the best school damage wise for a Greatsword wielder, since those mongoose attacks are even better for TWF, but ... does it totally suck? I'd love your opinion on it. Sudden Leap for instance is awesome for him I think, even though he doesn't need that full attack for TWF.
For defense, I thought about Wall of Blades (insanely nice once I get Shock Trooper and can actually transfer the -BAB to -AC)? And of course that sweet concentration-on-will-safe maneuver. I could also take the Resolute alternative warrior class feature, but will-save sounds superior. He has concentration 0 at the moment, and constitution 4, so adding only 2 levels of concentration would also give him a +7 will safe in total (+1 from a trait, +4 constitution, +2 concentration), which is a lot for level 3. I don't have to max concentration to keep the will safe viable with this maneuver, right? Just a bit now and then?  
So those 3 would be the first ones I took, maybe? And then continue Iron Heart and Raptor Jump Thing School?

I see a lot of people going for Iron Heart feat in the end (Stormthing warrior), but that looks like it only makes sense when you have a lot of OOA attacks. It might be fun to play a trip-ooa-spiked chain warrior, but my guy simply isn't. He is big and badass and tough and nice to animals.
Not in the way YOU are thinking right now!  :lmao

Maybe you have any other good ideas?
[/spoiler]

(3) Charging in general (skill tricks?)[spoiler]
Are there other ways to maxizime my charges? I like charging, and since I spent quite some feats on it already, it would be stupid not to go further. On the other hand, I don't want to be a one trick pony.

I also thought about that jump skill trick (10y more). Do I understand it correctly that if I could normally move 6 feet, on a charge 12 feat, and on a leap attack 14 feat (because my character jumps while charging)? And that e.g. Sudden Leap would also have a greater distance?
Also, getting 5 ranks tumble and 5 ranks balance as Warblade is probably worth the skill trick with the "charge around the corner"? [/spoiler]

(4) Pounce
[spoiler]Umm, I don't really understand how this works. I have the lion totem spirit thingie, could you explain it to me? Actually, I don't really understand how the whole multiple attack thing works once you read BAB7 and get another attack. [/spoiler]

(5) Magic Items
Also, I would love to have some advice on magic items (I have around 5.000 GP atm). I don't know much about magic items. Maybe you have some advice for the character I plan to play.
[spoiler]
* Ring of Protection +1 looks nice I guess.
* Strongarm Bracers for later, maybe?
* Whirling Weapon looks hardcore, but too expensive I guess.
* Life Drinking Weapon crystal maybe?
* Amulet of Tears?
* Boots of the Battle Charger (oh yeah baby)
* Gauntlets of OGre Power?[/spoiler]

(6) Dibs .. into Swordsage?
[spoiler]Should I dib into Swordsage for one level? What exactly would that mean - would I actually get another 6 maneuvers + 4 more readed maneuvers? So one level Warblade and one level Swordsage would already give me 3+4=7 readied maneuvers? And if I had taken martial study 3 times as a fighter, I'd have 10? Sounds a bit insane, especially since I can reset them in a free action+attack. Or did I misunderstand? [/spoiler]

EDIT: (7) Armor
[spoiler]Right, I forgot armor. My AC is 16 at the moment, lowest in the group, as mentioned before. It drops to 10 when I enlarge, charge and rage. Quite bad. Could I possibly wear heavy armor? I would lose the barbarian ability of movement, I guess, which would drop me down from 8-2 to 6-2 feet movement? And the difficulties on jump would be insane, I guess?

Any other ideas how to help out with my AC? I usually kill 95% of the enemies really quickly, while the rogue positions himself and the warlock loots  ;), but the cleric is having a hard time keeping me up. [/spoiler]


That's it boys. Thanks for your patience.

ta-ta
Torvon

EDIT: Restrictions

[spoiler]I can't just take random levels of classes if it doesn't fit the character concept. Barbarian, Fighter and Warblade fit quite nicely really, but I can't dip into stuff like Crusader, unfortunately. It neither would fit my personal playstyle, nor the playstyle of my group. [/spoiler]
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 02:06:06 PM by Torvon »
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

skydragonknight

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Tome of Battle classes work best when you have an even number of levels of other classes, so I'd suggest taking Warblade at 5th (so you can pick up 2nd level maneuvers). Barbarian 1 is good, and Fighter 2 is good. But Barb 2 is lackluster with 12 Dex and Fighter 3 is terrible. So a level dip in Crusader would work nicely: Probably Martial Spirit for the stance, since you can take Leading the Charge as a Warblade.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Rebel7284

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@SDK: His DM is giving him a half initiator level for free :)

Note that the lion totem barbarian loses fast movement so you only move 30 feet.  Also, those squares are 5 feet, not 1 foot so keep that terminology strait.  

As for how iterative attacks work, it's quite simple, just for having your BASE attack bonus at 6 or more, you get more attacks.  During a full attack (or at the end of a charge with pounce) You get one attack per each 5 points of BAB and each one gets weaker by 5 points.

Example: You played for a while and have 13 BAB.  You pounce an opponent.  

First attack: 13 + 1.5 Str + any other bonus
Second attack: 8 + 1.5 Str + any other bonus
Third attack: 3 + 1.5 Str + any other bonus

You can't get a 4th attack yet here because 3-5 = -2.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 02:01:57 PM by Rebel7284 »
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

skydragonknight

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Well then, Warblade at 4th looks good. Leading the Charge synergizes nicely and makes for a nice prereq for White Raven Tactics(which you should take sooner or later, though feel free to grab offensive maneuvers first and swap them later). Also take an Ironheart (maybe Disarming? Does it have prereqs?) for Ironheart Surge later.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Brainpiercing

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If you want to jump around I suggest several things:

The Leap of the heavens (PHBII, I think) feat, allows standing high-jumps.

The Up the Walls feat (SRD) (allows running up walls, as long as you finish your movement on a flat surface, you will need some power points, first, to be psionically focused so take one of the Talent feats, or dip Psychic Warrior. The best talent feat is Azure (or Midnight, I forget) Talent from Magic of Incarnum. If you take Shape Soulmeld with it, you will even get more power points, IIRC, which you could dump into a Deep Crystal weapon for bonus damage. Since you get a shload of feats, this is even possible without sacrificing too much of your other progression. Now a good soulmeld.....hmmm)

The Battle Jump feat (Unapproachable East): If you drop on your target from at least 5ft you can automatically initiate a charge and also do double damage or get a free trip attempt. Pretty neat, eh? Well, just hope there is always a wall or other vertical surface to run up, then.

When you take Warblade, take note that Tumble is a class skill. DO use that, because tactical mobility is always nice.

Maneuver stacking of different classes works entirely separtely. You have to refresh your Warblade maneuvers and your Swordsage maneuvers separately.

skydragonknight

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Also Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), which works wonders with Battle Jump.

Armor: (+1) Mithril Breastplate should be affordable in the next few levels. Counts as Light armor. When you get ~10K you can go for (+1) Mithril Fullplate, which counts as Medium. I don't usually go above +1 enhancement, since Magic Vestment doesn't stack with armor enhancement.

That assumes a DM who doesn't start every encounter with enemies 30-40 ft away and a straight line of charge. If your DM does that often, grab regular Full Plate (for now).
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Torvon

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Thanks so far.

If anyone wants to comment on the other points from the original thread, feel free to do so.

(1) Pounce

Pounce, MM 313: do I understand correctly that ...
with a non-pounce-charge, I can
(a) charge (movement) + single attack
and with pounce charge, I can
(b) charge (movement) + full attack?

That also means that there is no point for having pounce before I have a second attack (BAB 7)?
That means that since you have to take Pounce @ Barbarian level 1, you lose 6 levels of +10 feet movement for getting pounce at level 7?

(2) Leap of the Heavens
That does not help me at all with the Tiger Claw school, right? Since all the jumps included in maneuvers are jumps with DC = AC of the enemy.

Thanks
Torvon
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 08:40:21 PM by Torvon »
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

skydragonknight

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It is generally optimal to take the Lion Totem Barb dip with this variant:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy

Though if UA is out, then yes, Pounce is a bit wasted at lower levels for a two-handed barb.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Beltendu

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Pounce, MM 313: do I understand correctly that ...
with a non-pounce-charge, I can
(a) charge (movement) + single attack
ad and with pounce charge, I can
(b) charge (movement) + full attack?

That also means that there is no point for having pounce before I have a second attack (BAB 7)?
That means that since you have to take Pounce @ Barbarian level 1, you lose 6 levels of +10 feet movement for getting pounce at level 7?

If you only go with a single two handed weapon and haven't gone to any effort to pick up extra natural attacks, or flurry, or two weapon fighting, then yes, you can't make much use of pounce until you start getting iterative attacks from your BAB.  But you can seriously break pounce over your knee if you pick up some natural attacks, start dual wielding, and pick up some extra damage (sneak attack, skirmish, elemental damage, etc etc)... :)

Torvon

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Right, here's how I'm going to do it:

1 Barb
2 Fight
3 Fight
4 Warbl | Sudden Leap, Claw at the Moon, Wall of Blades| Leading the Charge Stance
5 Warbl | Diamond Mind Will-save Maneuver
6 Warbl | White Raven Tactics


Since my DM give me 0.5 Initiator Level for free, I can start with Warblade on 4 @ Initiator Level 3, meaning I can already grab level 2 maneuvers.

Sudden Leap is awesome, since I play a charger and already have a very high jump rating (+ Leap of the Heavens, + Extreme Jump Skill Trick).
I need another Tiger maneuver to qualify, therefor I take Claw at the Moon and replace it later. I also take Wall of Blades to help out with my AC.
Leading the Charge isn't bad (does it also boost my charge damage? It says "your allies"), and is a prerequesite for White Raven Tactics.

After that I'm not sure yet, I shall see what is needed most then.

Thanks so far.

I talked to my DM, I have the lion totem, but I won't "enable" it until I can make use of pounce (2h weapon atm, no natural weapons, no TWF etc.). Maybe around level 7 oder 8. Until then I still ahve my +10ft. movement.

About the Whirling Frenzy Variant: it's not included in Heroforge, and we usually limit ourselves to that.
Same with the Battle Jump feat ... I don't play this game very long, but imo it's completely overpowered. I do 80% of the group's damage already, and the character will be strong enough without, I presume.

ta-ta
Torvon
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 09:25:46 AM by Torvon »
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

CantripN

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Re: Barbarian -> Fighter -> Warblade? (I'd very much appreciate some help)
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 12:13:20 PM »
At low levels, a decent melee character can be deadly indeed, but soon you'll get outstripped by your fellows, especially the casters. When that happens, you'll need a boost, and Whirling Frenzy is it. It's REALLY nice, and not at all broken, seeing as you're not getting something for nothing (you lose the CON bonus, and that hurts, and you take a -2 on Attack to get the extra attack).

Otherwise, I gotta say you seem to be making more or less the right choices, but make sure you get Punishing Stance as your Warblade Stance.

If you have 15 WIS, take Neraph Charge when you can. If you don't, Mad Foam Rager is always nice to have, and you should make sure you have Combat Reflexes by level 12, so you can take Robilar's Gambit as your 12th level feat (there is NO excuse not to, if you can).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 12:16:09 PM by CantripN »
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Torvon

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Re: Barbarian -> Fighter -> Warblade? (I'd very much appreciate some help)
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2010, 12:15:44 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm really not sure about that stance. I need a prereq for White Raven Defense, and Leading the Charge doesn't sound like the worst choice for a first level stance.

I do 80% of the group damage at the moment, probably a bit more even. Does that 1d6 matter?
Furthermore,I promised my cleric buddy to do something about by AC, because he doesn't do anything while fighting than heal me. As stated before, in medium armor (16), rage (14), enlarged (12) and after a charge (10), even a snail hits me :p

Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

CantripN

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Re: Barbarian -> Fighter -> Warblade? (I'd very much appreciate some help)
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 12:21:45 PM »
Yeah, I guess you're right about the Stance, but be sure to get Iron Heart Surge ASAP, anyway. After White Raven Tactics, it's the best Maneuver you'll ever get.

As for maneuvers, be sure to plan more than a level or two ahead so you can get all the best ones.
Ex: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II?post_id=338403718#338403718
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Torvon

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Re: Barbarian -> Fighter -> Warblade? (I'd very much appreciate some help)
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 01:44:04 PM »
Another thing:

do the jump boni from "leap of the heavens" and "boots of striding" stack?
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

Mixster

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Re: Barbarian -> Fighter -> Warblade? (I'd very much appreciate some help)
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2010, 02:26:26 PM »
Enlarge person and rage is your bitch there, you don't need it all combat. Most of your combats at your level can be dealt with by using just a great sword and your strength.

Using the Whirling Frenzy variant would also help you there, since it increases your armour class instead of degrading it.

One you get a few levels, defending armour spikes where the wizard casts greater magic weapon on is a nifty trick to improve your armour class.

Also, a Mithral Full plate might help you at higher levels.

Although it costs you a feat, and cannot be used while raging, combat expertise is possible for you due to Int 14.

Apart from that there aren't a lot of options for you when you're bound to run around in medium armour with a dex of 12.

Except for the usual magic items that increase your armour. (like an animated tower shield once you get the money for that).
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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