Author Topic: Magic Missile Optimization  (Read 76998 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2010, 11:35:53 PM »
wow -- I never even thought of that.   :facepalm
seems so obvious now.
would need 3 different admixtures for x4 ; 4 different admixtures would be x5 (I think -- just some quick math in my head)
Can't admix *5, there's only four valid choices for admix, plus base damage of force type.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2010, 12:49:09 AM »
wow -- I never even thought of that.   :facepalm
seems so obvious now.
would need 3 different admixtures for x4 ; 4 different admixtures would be x5 (I think -- just some quick math in my head)
Can't admix *5, there's only four valid choices for admix, plus base damage of force type.
well, let's see:
- max missile (pick your energy type) = 100%
- admix fire = +100%
- admix cold = +100% (of base)
- admix acid = +100%
- admix elec = +100% 
total = 500% (or x5) -- what did I miss?

for example, let's just arbitrarily say that the missile does 5 damage:
- base missile (pick your energy type) = 5
- admix fire = +5
- admix cold = +5
- admix acid = +5
- admix elec = +5   
total = 25 = 5 x 5

and since the actual feat description specifically gives an example of admixing fire with a fireball for a double-powered fireball, I don't see a problem.   :shrug

 :p

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

McPoyo

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2010, 12:56:39 AM »
wow -- I never even thought of that.   :facepalm
seems so obvious now.
would need 3 different admixtures for x4 ; 4 different admixtures would be x5 (I think -- just some quick math in my head)
Can't admix *5, there's only four valid choices for admix, plus base damage of force type.
well, let's see:
- max missile (pick your energy type) = 100%
- admix fire = +100%
- admix cold = +100% (of base)
- admix acid = +100%
- admix elec = +100% 
total = 500% (or x5) -- what did I miss?

for example, let's just arbitrarily say that the missile does 5 damage:
- base missile (pick your energy type) = 5
- admix fire = +5
- admix cold = +5
- admix acid = +5
- admix elec = +5   
total = 25 = 5 x 5

and since the actual feat description specifically gives an example of admixing fire with a fireball for a double-powered fireball, I don't see a problem.   :shrug

 :p
I misread and thought you had said applying admix 5 times, not applying it 4 times for a x5 damage.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2010, 01:00:53 AM »
wow -- I never even thought of that.   :facepalm
seems so obvious now.
would need 3 different admixtures for x4 ; 4 different admixtures would be x5 (I think -- just some quick math in my head)
Can't admix *5, there's only four valid choices for admix, plus base damage of force type.
well, let's see:
- max missile (pick your energy type) = 100%
- admix fire = +100%
- admix cold = +100% (of base)
- admix acid = +100%
- admix elec = +100% 
total = 500% (or x5) -- what did I miss?

for example, let's just arbitrarily say that the missile does 5 damage:
- base missile (pick your energy type) = 5
- admix fire = +5
- admix cold = +5
- admix acid = +5
- admix elec = +5   
total = 25 = 5 x 5

and since the actual feat description specifically gives an example of admixing fire with a fireball for a double-powered fireball, I don't see a problem.   :shrug

 :p
I misread and thought you had said applying admix 5 times, not applying it 4 times for a x5 damage.
:thumb

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Mixster

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2010, 09:37:43 AM »
Ok, so I'm updating to make it legal, and include what I promised yesterday:

EDIT: Edited the build to make sure one rod is not applied multiple times to the same spell.
EDIT: Changed the build to take care of the dual action choker trick. No the damage is even higher.
EDIT: Will remove the belt of battle/celerity trick once I'm sure those don't grant extra swift actions, I read it as extra full round actions also grant extra swift actions.

*DISCLAIMER* This build is not a super powerful build (Heck even viable, since you win anyway with shapechange), even the slightest bit of energy resistance reduces the damage vastly. *DISCLAIMER*

*IMPORTANT:* Due to me not wanting to write everything out, my Magic Missile Spells will be counted with a letter, E for those that are empowered but not maximized (most of them repeating and twinned are calculated in other categories) M for those that are both empowered and maximized. Spells with an A after are also energy admixtured 4 times (so MA or EA respectively).

Build:
[spoiler]Instant Metamagic sorcerer 6/ Incantatrix 10/ Force Missile Mage 4
Cha is maxed, everything else doesn't matter, but keep con high.
Feats:
(gets Iron Will ASAP from Otyugh hole)
(Flaw): Empower Spell
(Flaw): Knowledge Devotion
Level 1: Quicken Spell
Human: Combat Casting (has to have this for FMM)
Level 3: Twin Spell
Level 6: Arcane Thesis Magic Missile
Incantatrix 3: Repeat Spell
Level 9: Practical Metamagic Twin Spell
Incantatrix 7: Maximize spell
Level 12: Easy Metamagic Repeat Spell
Incantatrix 10: Easy Metamagic Twin Spell
Level 15: Arcane Thesis Greater Arcane Fusion
Level 18: Easy Metamagic Quicken[/spoiler]

Equipment: (760,000 gold)
[spoiler]
Otyugh Hole (3,000)
Cloak of Charisma + 6 (36,000)
Intelligent +1 Mithral Buckler of battle (Buckler with the belt of battle effect as per magic item compendium and DMs guide, this allows us a legendary belt of battle effect that can activate itself)  (up to 41,000 and some experience)
4 Greater Metamagic rods, Energy Admixture (practically one of each, this gives us 12 admixtures) (680,000)
[/spoiler]

Known Spells (only the important ones mentioned)
[spoiler]Shape Change, Magic Missile, Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Celerity[/spoiler]

Damage for each Missile:
[spoiler]Maximized Empowered Energy Admixtured Missile:
1 energy admixtures adds +100%, empower adds +50%, lets not assume they double eachother (that would be sick)
(5 + 5)*2.5 = 25
Maximized Empowered Missile:
(5+5)*1.5 = 15
Empowered Energy Admixtured Missile:
(3.5+5)*2.5=21.25
Empowered Missile:
(3.5+5)*1.5=12.75
[/spoiler]

Magic Missile spells per arcane fusion:
[spoiler]
Each Twinned Repeating Arcane fusion: (remember M is maximised and empowered magic missiles, E is empowered but not maxmised)
2 Empowered, twinned repeating (+possibly energy admixtured by rods) Magic Missiles
2 Maximized, Empowered, Twinned, Repeating (+possibly energy admixtured by rods) Magic Missiles
So 4 of each from that (since twinned missiles).
(+ double that in the turn after (since both the arcane fusion repeats, and the missiles does as well))
Twinned, Repeating Greater arcane fusion:
2 Twinned Repeating Arcane Fusion, 2 Twinned Repeating Empowered Maximized Magic Missile
Twinned Arcane fusion gives 4E + 4M. (Double this as it is two castings (due to greater arcane fusion being twinned) gives us 8E + 8M.
Also in a twinned repeating greater arcane fusion, we get 2 twinned repeating Empowered Maximized Magic Missile spells, which is 4M.
This gives us 12M + 8E For each Greater arcane fusion.
(however in the turn after, we would have 12M+8E (greater arcane fusion repeats) + 8M + 8E (Arcane Fusion repeats) + 12M + 8E (Missiles repeating) = 32M+24E)[/spoiler]
Missiles per casting: 6

Damage for each Magic Missile spell:
[spoiler]Maximized Empowered Energy Admixtured Magic Missile Spell
MA=6*(5 + 5)*2.5 =150
Maximized Empowered Magic Missile Spell
M=6*(5+5)*1.5 = 90
Empowered Energy Admixtured Magic Missile Spell:
EA=6*(3.5+5)*2.5=127.5
Empowered Magic Missile Spell:
E=6*(3.5+5)*1.5=76.5[/spoiler]

Casting order:
[spoiler]1st Round:
Shapechange into a Choker, This gives you dual actions.

2nd Round:
[spoiler] (REMEMBER DUAL ACTIONS DUE TO CHOKER:
Cast Energy Admixtured Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Swift Action Used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Standard Action used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Swift Action Used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Standard Action used)
Belt of Battle Activates, +1 Full Round Action:
Cast Energy Admixtured Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Swift Action Used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Standard Action used)[/spoiler]
6 Castings of Energy Admixtured greater arcane fusion nets us 6*(12MA + 8EA)=72MA+48EA
So in total round one 72MA+48EA

3rd Round
[spoiler]REMEMBER DUAL ACTIONS DUE TO CHOKER:
Cast Energy Admixtured Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Swift Action Used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Standard Action used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Swift Action Used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Standard Action used)
After round is over, but before anyone else gets to act, activate greater celerity:
Cast Energy Admixtured Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Swift Action Used)
Cast Energy Admixtured Twinned Repeating Greater Arcane Fusion (Standard Action used)[/spoiler]
6 Castings of Energy Admixtured greater arcane fusion nets us 6*(12MA + 8EA)=72MA+48EA
Then there's the carryover from last round: Earlier we calculated that each repeating greater arcane fusion spell cast in the turn before nets 32M+24E, so 6*(32MA+24EA)=192MA+144EA
In total we get 264MA+192EA On round 3.
Calculating round 3 Damage:
264*150+192*127.5=64080
[/spoiler]
So 64080 damage in one round. Damage for highest damaging missile is 25, Pretty decent damage output.

This build uses 13 Level 8 spells and one level 9 spell. But that is attainable as Sorc level 19.

Ps. How long does it take to change a belt? With Timestop one could technically throw off three greater arcane fusion with the belt, use timestop, change belt to a new belt of battle, wait for time to start, use three greater arcane fusions, then timestop, until you run out of level 9 spells (or belts, whichever comes first).
After this he will have burned 8 Level 8 spells and one level 9 spell. However, all in all he will have 12 Level 8 and 9 spells so it can be done once per day.
PPS. In theory we could have more if we did the action like: Round 2, 4 Gr. Arcane Fusion. Round 3, 4 Gr. Arcane fusion + Belt of battle for 6 Gr. Arcane fusion. Round 4, 4+2 Gr. Arcane fusion (with Celerity), since it would give us some residual spells from the first round as well (since a greater arcane fusion will have repeated the round before, and all those spells will have repeating), but I'm not in the mood to re-do all the calculations for this.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 07:51:15 PM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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McPoyo

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2010, 10:04:31 AM »
How are you casting 4 spells in one round, again?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2010, 10:45:03 AM »
If you're going nova, why not craft some contingent ones as well?
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Anklebite

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2010, 10:53:20 AM »
I thought the magic missile optim would include the obvious arcane fusion novas, with a possible mention of the "if sanctum works, magic missile at infinity" trick.
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Mixster

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2010, 11:12:50 AM »
How are you casting 4 spells in one round, again?
Belt of battle activates itself for extra full round action in the first round, that gives us an extra swift and an extra standard action. This gives us 2 extra spells over the usual quickened + standard arcane Thesis.
In round three we do it through greater infinity, after the round is over, but before anyone else gets to act we use our Immediate action (which loses our round 4 swift action, but we'd be dazed in that round anyway), to cast Greater Celerity, that grants us another full round action, which we use for 1 Standard Action Greater Arcane Fusion, and one Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion.

If you're going nova, why not craft some contingent ones as well?
I assumed the one round of preparation only stopped us from doing contigent spells. But with Craft Contigent spell you could in theory have an unlimited amount of missiles.
With just contingency you could have it activate greater arcane fusion (cast greater arcane fusion when I cast greater arcane fusion) and get another 32M + 24E in the 3rd Round).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 11:16:32 AM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Anklebite

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2010, 11:17:28 AM »
How are you casting 4 spells in one round, again?
Belt of battle activates itself for extra full round action in the first round, that gives us an extra swift and an extra standard action. This gives us 2 extra spells over the usual quickened + standard arcane Thesis.
In round three we do it through greater infinity, after the round is over, but before anyone else gets to act we use our Immediate action (which loses our round 4 swift action, but we'd be dazed in that round anyway), to cast Greater Celerity, that grants us another full round action, which we use for 1 Standard Action Greater Arcane Fusion, and one Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion.

extra full round actions do not work that way.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

wotmaniac

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2010, 11:50:39 AM »
I thought the magic missile optim would include the obvious arcane fusion novas, with a possible mention of the "if sanctum works, magic missile at infinity" trick.
notice that I specifically called for no infinity loops  ;)
with infinity loops apparently so easy to come by, any "record "X"" challenge would be pointless unless they were banned.  it just feels too much like cheating; and I was looking for a little more "fair play" (besides, my personal interpretation of sanctum spell is that it doesn't quite work like that -- but that's a discussion for a different thread). :p

As to the rest -- I just got home from work, and need to get some sleep first.  I'll look at it tonight.  :bigeye

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Mixster

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2010, 02:28:18 PM »
Alternatively you could use the shapechange to change into a Sharn from Anauroch: The Empire of the Shade.
Alas I don't have the book, only an old 3.0 version of Monsters of Faerun, but as I'm told, sharns have dual actions, 9 arms and can cast spells just fine. This would increase your killing potential.
It's still not useful, since shapechange with a sorcerer of this level would toast almost anything that's even remotely CR appropriate.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

McPoyo

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2010, 03:14:56 PM »
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2010, 03:36:22 PM »
You would be better off becoming a Choker.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866002/THIS_IS_A_THREAD_THAT_WILL_BECOME_A_HANDBOOK

True that. Since I have loads of move actions (as I don't use them), I should be able to draw my rods, if not, I'll have to add some gloves of storing, or the quickdraw feat.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2010, 06:31:16 PM »
Alternatively you could use the shapechange to change into a Sharn from Anauroch: The Empire of the Shade.
Alas I don't have the book, only an old 3.0 version of Monsters of Faerun, but as I'm told, sharns have dual actions, 9 arms and can cast spells just fine. This would increase your killing potential.
It's still not useful, since shapechange with a sorcerer of this level would toast almost anything that's even remotely CR appropriate.
You can't turn into a sharn or anything approximating one.
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snakeman830

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2010, 06:51:13 PM »
Just remember that only one Metamagic rod can be applied to a spell.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

McPoyo

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2010, 06:54:15 PM »
Just remember that only one Metamagic rod can be applied to a spell.
Rules quote on that one?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2010, 06:57:03 PM »
Just remember that only one Metamagic rod can be applied to a spell.
Rules quote on that one?
Metamagic Rods
Quote from: Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell
Emphasis mine.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

McPoyo

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2010, 06:59:46 PM »
Interesting...I had never noticed that before. Hmm...So short of adding in extra actions via gear, I've still the record.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Magic Missile Optimization
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2010, 07:02:03 PM »
Well, You could apply the metamagic rods to more different, castings, you have loads of castings that don't benefit yet, it would net the same end effect but damage per missile would go down.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out