Author Topic: The end of all "AntiMage" threads  (Read 70303 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #500 on: April 09, 2010, 11:37:57 AM »
You don't need half of that.
Rod of Absorption = immune to all SR checking targeted spells, assuming you don't pump your AC to reflect rays back.
Evasion* + Mettle = make your save (see below) and ignore what the rod misses or can't handle, like distinction.
FoM* = immune to nonsavable battle field control spells.
Mind Blank* = immune to everything else.
Immunity to Death Effects & Energy Drain* = Why not?
*all on a legacy tooth for less than 80,000 gold
Now what options are left for the wizard to play offensively assuming people will stop talking about how gate/binding to get someone else to fight for you to make up for your total lack of usefulness fixes their problems? Orb of Force (see below)?

Saving
DC = 10 + at best 9 + 13 (36 int) + what?
2 for icemail armor?
4 for draconic aura?
1 for draconic power?
2 for both cold focus and it's greater?
It's only DC 41.

Saves 1d20+34 = 6 (base) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck: luckstone) + 1 (insight: parry) + 6 (sacred: bracers of empyreal armor +6) + 5 (unnamed: spellstrike) + 5 (20 in whatever ability) + 10 (d20 avg) + 5 (unnamed: +5 resilient __ armor, takes an immediate action to use).
35% fail chance factoring nothing but items and a horrid base of 6. Srsly, if you picked up mettle though hexblade the bases will probably be higher and you'll have at least another +5 from charisma. Unless the wizard whips out some down right insanely broken stuff to pump their DC even higher, and I guarantee along that road theres stuff to boost saves too, the wizard's offensive isn't exactly all powerful and barely useful in the save or die suck area.

Orb of ___ spells?
To Hit 30 = 10 (bab) + 10 (30 dex) + 10 (d20 avg)
AC 31 = 10 (base) + 5 (20 dex) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (crystal) + 6 (shield: parrying shield a fighter bonus feat)
Ok, not as good as you might expect. Brain fart on the armor bonus to touch AC enchantment or feat for another +13 from armor so the wizard can only hit with a roll of 24, I mean natural 20 even if they think seeking ray would help. *shurgs* Really, you could drop the rod and pray they use rays since you can pick up an ACF for ray reflection if they miss and let them kill them selves.

Edit
For kicks, pay to be planeshifted to the ethereal plane or maybe consider dipping into the old classic Planar Champion. Complete Psionic's Ethereal Reaver allows you to attack the material plane without error. Free 50% chance to ignore anything the wizard does on top of built in flight. If Nab a strike or two with a dip and with Spring Attack you can even have total cover by hiding in the ground or in the hardened obdurium hat without any offense loss.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 11:42:25 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

jseah

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #501 on: April 09, 2010, 04:33:02 PM »
^Ethereal reaver is only useful against things that can't go ethereal.  Which the wizard decidedly can and will. 

Your tactics are good ideas though. 

True strike / Moment of Prescience could get an orb past your AC though.  Which the wizard would use if the first missed. (since orb blasters tend to want to use orb blasting)

If you wanted to homebrew stuff, a few feats/items that got the AC and saves and special abilities (like FoM and Mindblank) where you needed them instead of sourcebook hunting could cut down on alot of needed optimization (and by extension increase the base power of martial classes). 

SorO_Lost

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #502 on: April 10, 2010, 10:46:14 AM »
1. ^Ethereal reaver is only useful against things that can't go ethereal.  Which the wizard decidedly can and will. 

Your tactics are good ideas though. 

2. True strike / Moment of Prescience could get an orb past your AC though.  Which the wizard would use if the first missed. (since orb blasters tend to want to use orb blasting)

3. If you wanted to homebrew stuff, a few feats/items that got the AC and saves and special abilities (like FoM and Mindblank) where you needed them instead of sourcebook hunting could cut down on alot of needed optimization (and by extension increase the base power of martial classes). 
1. It attacks both ethereal and material so a planesshifted wizard merely removes the miss chance. However, and see below.

2. If he missed the first time he could have just blasted him self. Also AC cranking is relatively easy, you could obtain 90+ by the 20th level while still wearing all the gear mentioned if you set your mind to it. I am avoiding bringing in class abilities though.

3. Never homebrew what you can already do, you lose the officialness of it. However, a howbrew 9th level version of One With Shadow that turns you ethereal instead of incorporeal sounds cool. Trigger it to go ethereal and maintain full offensive abilities, if the wizard planesshifts next round then you're effect will end prompting 100% immunity until they planesshift yet again. It's a good waste of their actions and spell slots just to debuff a single defense.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #503 on: April 13, 2010, 12:44:22 AM »
Well do you prefer a set of feats/spells/equipment that could be integrated into another build, or do you prefer a homebrew class with anti-caster abilities?
A homebrew class.

Maybe if you were a character with infinite spell resistance, the ability to auto-pass every save, immunity to divinations and Mindsight, you had Mettle and Improved Evasion, and an army of similarly statted creatures, you could survive.
You don't need half of that.
True. But its not without precedent, especially for homebrew:
Spell immunity isn't that far fetched
grab hellbreaker's telepathic static or just mind blank
mettle and evasion seem reasonable
something similar to the thrallherd ability?

3. Never homebrew what you can already do, you lose the officialness of it. However, a howbrew 9th level version of One With Shadow that turns you ethereal instead of incorporeal sounds cool. Trigger it to go ethereal and maintain full offensive abilities, if the wizard planesshifts next round then you're effect will end prompting 100% immunity until they planesshift yet again. It's a good waste of their actions and spell slots just to debuff a single defense.
True. This thread starts with the assumption that homebrew is needed for an effective antimage character. The trick as I see it is to defend against all but the TO-ish wizards without breaking the game. What is One With Shadow? Its not in the mango index, so I presume its a class ability.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
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Tonymitsu

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #504 on: April 13, 2010, 12:50:14 AM »
Well do you prefer a set of feats/spells/equipment that could be integrated into another build, or do you prefer a homebrew class with anti-caster abilities?
A homebrew class.


I made something up along these lines a few years ago that might help.
If I can manage to dig it out and polish it a little I'll post it.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #505 on: April 17, 2010, 02:58:30 AM »
I made something up along these lines a few years ago that might help.
If I can manage to dig it out and polish it a little I'll post it.
I'd love that

In the meantime, here's mine. Its pretty simple and withstands to a reasonable degree (but doesn't defeat) even the worst TO wizards:

Bab=full, Good saves=fort,refl. There is an SLA progression every other level starting at 2 (Cure light, auto empower, Scry, Revivify, True Seeing, Heal, Word of Recall, Mind Blank, auto maximize, auto quicken) Its a "tanking" idea with mostly party-friend fluff. Its mainly based off the warlock, but has lesser forms of levels from other classes. You will see that the first seven class levels look like degenerate versions (slower progressions, etc) of the shaman, monk, shaman, scout, paladin, hexblade, and again paladin classes. It then gets a delayed version of the silly monk's greater flurry at 12th level.

Specials:
[spoiler]Animal Companion, Unarmed Strike
Bonus feat, evasion
Turn or Rebuke Undead
Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC)
Divine Grace
Mettle
Special Mount
Increased Weapon Damage
Pseudo-Magical Detection
AC bonus (heavy armor)
Magical Detection
Greater Flurry
Cover
Sacrificial Ability Completion
Saves Boost
Soul Corruption
Magical Detection, Greater
Stat Gain
HD increase (d20s)
Deny Magic[/spoiler]

Notes on Special abilities:
[spoiler]Domains: At level one, choose two domains. You gain their granted powers, but not their spells.   
   
At 8th level for one weapon of your choice any boosts to unarmed damage instead boost your weapon damage. Precision damage is likewise no longer such and now adds to your weapon damage directly.   
   
At 9th level you gain the ability to know whenever a non-spell ability would trigger an effect that emulates a spell if its action takes place within 10' per class level.   
   Any abilities that directly reproduce the effects of a spell count for your Pseudo-Magical Detection, including effects that function 'as' a certain spell.
   Most all spell-like abilities will fall under this class ability - though a few like a paladin calling his mount do not count, since it doesn't have a specific spell that it emulates.
   Most (Ex) abilities will not emulate a spell directly enough to count for this, since they rarely reference a spell. (Su) abilities vary.
   
At 10th level as long as you are wearing heavy armor each different piece of masterwork or above armor or shield adds a stacking bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier but doubles armor check penalties.   
   
At 11th level you gain the ability to know what every spell cast (including through items) within a 100' radius is and its affect as if you had succeeded on a spellcraft check. This includes activating contingencies.   
   You also know the location and identity of the caster. This is a passive, non-divination ability and requires no action. This is not limited to arcane and divine magic (applies to psionics, shadow casting, etc)
   
At 12th level you may greater flurry as a monk with your previously damage-boosted chosen weapon or while unarmed   
   
At 13th level your Cover ability works like the Share Pain power except your target must be willing and within your reach at the time of damage to work, and you take 100% damage, not 50%.   
   Taking damage for your target is a free action as is designating your cover target, though it does require an opposed wisdom check with the enemy damage-dealer if attempted in a surprise round or while you are flat-footed.
   
At 14th level any spell or ability within 1000' x you HD that would trigger your Pseduo-Magical Detection or Magical detection abilities but fails to take effect for any reason (arcane spell failure, counter-spelling, etc)    
   may be completed under your control if you spend the spell's level x its caster level (the the cast spell or emulated spell) in HP damage. The effect still originates from the failing caster, not you.
   This damage cannot be redirected, lessened, or negated. If reduced to 0 or less hp by this damage, you are dying and cannot reuse this ability again until healed.
   
At 15th level each of your HD is given a “Good” base saves progression, over a “Poor” one.   
   
At 16th level whenever you defeat (via lethal or non-lethal damage) a creature you may attempt to rend the magic from its body. A successful magic rend precludes any form of resurrection, even by a wish spell.   
   Your percentage chance to succeed is the sum all spell levels the creature possesses for both used and unused spells or spell emulating abilities including open spell slots
   If you succeed by more than 100%, you may 'store' this for the immediately following use of this ability only. If it is not used then, it is lost, nor does it roll-over to future uses.
   If this ability is used on a member of the same base class, the SLAs are counted as being of minimal level. Note this may be used to protect the innocent as well as punish the guilty.
   
At 17th level your Pseudo-Magic Detection and Magical Detection abilities work at any range and across planes.   
   
At 18th level you gain 1 * your class level as an unnamed bonus in the physical stat of your choice. Gaining the next two levels continue to add stats meaning you would have +25 in the stat of your choice at class level 20   
   
At 20th level you may choose as a free action to negate any spell or replicated spell known from the your Greater Magical Detection by taking the spell's level x its caster level in HP damage.   
   This damage cannot be redirected, lessened, or negated. If reduced to 0 or less hp by this damage, you are dying and cannot reuse this ability again until healed.
   Creatures that may sharespells are considered spell-countered when the original caster is thwarted.
   
Code of Conduct: If you break any part of the following restrictions you lose all class abilities.  Alignment LG.    
   You may never act before any enemy in an encounter; you must delay until all enemies have had a chance to act.[/spoiler]

Everything has, I hope, a logical order to the capstone.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 12:33:52 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r