Optimization Challenge: Werewolf

[dna1]

Hello all! Once again thank you for any help and ideas given here. I love you all

So we are starting a new game. A lycanthrope game where all of us are from the same tribe.

K so I have to make a Human, natural werewolf. Not afflicted. With 1 character level, using a 25 point buy. Pretty much all 3.5 books availible.
The other characters in the party are a warblade,pali,cleric,sorc. All melee except the sorc obviously...
I was thinking Id like to round out the party, some sort of ranged character. I think that maybe some sort of badass ranged rogue would be sweet. But.. Im not sure how to make a effecient one.

Im looking for something to play off the werewolf strengths, something mobile, a skill monkey would be nice, but Id rather have survivability and damage. Since we are such low levels Id probably have more fun being able to dish some decent dmg.
All input is greatly appriciated.. i guess mostly im looking for level progression build ideas 

[Nunkuruji]

Just slap swift hunter on top of it?

[Truncator]

When going for a mobile non-spellcasting character I usually use one of two ways:
1- taking a level of cloistered cleric and taking the travel devotion feat, decent charisma would be an asset here, but is not needed
2- taking 1-2 levels of ardent with practiced manifester and the freedom mantle, you need decent wisdom for this(time mantle is really good too)

I'm not sure what kind of character you would like to play, but I'm sure you would find plenty of mobility and sneakiness in this build:
ardent 2/swordsage 2/ sanctified mind 6/ swordsage...
Important stats being wis, dex, con and str      --      dump cha and int

[PhaedrusXY]

Well, you get to take the class level as your first level, multiplying the skill points by four. If you want to be stealthy and be able to be the "trapmonkey", I'd suggest ranger with the alternate trapfinding class feature (replaces Track, which you get as a bonus anyway). Swordsage would be great for such a build, and the animal hit dice won't hurt as much as you'll get +1 initiator level from them (the LA is still going to hurt, though). I'd take this later so your starting maneuvers are higher level, though.

The targetteer variant fighter (dragon magazine) is an awesome dip, as it lets you add Dex to damage with ranged attacks. You might be able to combine that with the Hit and Run tactics fighter ACF (Drow of the Underdark) for Dex to damage again. Swordsage grants you Weapon Focus with a bunch of stuff, including daggers, so it sets you up to take Dead Eye (dragon magazine) (which adds Dex to damage yet again) and enter Invisible Thrower.
Overall, it might look like something like this for the first few levels:

RHD2/Rngr1/Ftr1/SwdSg1/InvBld1/Rngr+1/MstThr1/SswdSg+1 (ECL 12)

Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Rapid Shot (ranger 2), Wpn Focus (retrain to Far Shot at 5th) (flaw), Precise Shot (flaw), Quick Draw (human)(retrain when you get it as a bonus), Dead Eye (3), Discipline Focus (SS1), Darkstalker/Craven/etc (6), Quick Draw (MT1)

Items: Gloves of the Balanced Hands (grant TWF), two feycraft daggers (grant Weapon Finesse, in case you have to melee), a bunch of standard daggers and skiprocks.

Definitely make Dex your highest stat by far (you can get it to damage up to three times). I'd go Con or Int 2nd, and the other 3rd, and then whatever.

You get two bonus ranged exotic weapon proficiencies from Targetteer. Halfling skiprocks are insane, as you get to hit two adjacent people with each one and add sneak attack damage to both. I'd definitely pick that as one of them. Use those if you're facing multiple targets, or daggers against one (you'll get 3x Dex to dmg on daggers but only 2x on the skiprocks, unless you take Weapon Focus with them).

[Shadowhunter]

A few things worth noticing if you go with PhaedrusXY idea there:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7564.msg248979#msg248979

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5920.msg196043#msg196043

Perhaps I should sig this, it tends to pop up about once a month.

[PhaedrusXY]

A few things worth noticing if you go with PhaedrusXY idea there:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7564.msg248979#msg248979

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5920.msg196043#msg196043

Perhaps I should sig this, it tends to pop up about once a month.

I noticed that myself back when I was building a character using this stuff, and should have mentioned it, but it is worth asking your DM about. Some might allow it, anyway. For the character I'm using it with, I'm actually taking a level of another fighter variant (the Tome fighter), and the DM considers it to be different enough that I can multiclass it and "normal" fighter. So I took one of those ACFs with each (and I'd since forgotten that you couldn't "normally" take them together...).

There is also a character in another game I'm in that's using them together IIRC.

Even if you can't... you can still get 2x Dex to damage from one of them and the Dead Eye feat...

[dna1]

Thank you for the ideas and input, I look forward to more replies.

Hmm well that gives me some pretty cool ideas for a character actually.

Now the hit and run fighter, and targetter. Do you get str bonus to dmg from throwing daggers? Would that stack with the dex to dmg bonus from the h&r fighter?  Which fighter should i take first, the h&r or the targetter?

Throwing daggers would be pretty cool, but can it compete with a bow? I just read the part about skip rocks thats pretty sweet to. I like the idea of a werewolf character running around pwning with rocks and daggers much more then a bow. How would it be 3x dex mod to dmg? Would I be throwing two daggers/rocks? I mean one from eatch hand?

[Shadowhunter]

Unless your DM allows you to take both H&R Fighter and Targeteer, you can't.
It say in the open sequence to the alternative fighters (which Targeteer is one of) that you can't multi-class between different kinds of fighter.

If your DM allows it, I'd go for Targeteer first, since it's damage is not limited to flat-footed targets.

Yes, STR bonuses apply to all Thrown weapons except splash weapons, IIRC.
It stacks with the H&R Fighter, but not the Targeteer since the latter substitutes STR for DEX.

Skiprocks are something new to me, but they sound awesome.
Since Master Thrower have an ability to throw small items really good (read: two items per hand, twice the amount of attacks), this is really nice.
The only way you could get 3x DEX is if your DM allows mixture of H&R Fighter and Targeteer.
Otherwise you're stuck at 2xDEX with either + Dead Eye.

As stated earlier, I then recommend Targeteer.

[PhaedrusXY]

Throwing daggers would be pretty cool, but can it compete with a bow?

It can do better than a bow, since you can combine both TWF and Rapid Shot on it, and then slap on skiprocks (for doubling your attacks) and Master Thrower (for doubling them again). You can also get full BAB and SA progression from Invisible Blade for 5 levels, but the SA only applies with daggers. If you're using Sneak Attack damage, you have to be within 30 feet anyway, so the bow range is wasted and you can't get as many attacks with it anyway, even with the Splitting enhancement (unless you go for Arrow Demon form via Polymorph. You might then...).

I just read the part about skip rocks thats pretty sweet to. I like the idea of a werewolf character running around pwning with rocks and daggers much more then a bow. How would it be 3x dex mod to dmg? Would I be throwing two daggers/rocks? I mean one from eatch hand?

If you can take both fighter variants (which would require DM fiat/houseruling), it is 1x from the Hit and Run fighter, 1x from Targetteer variant, and 1x from Dead Eye.

And you can throw a crapload of rocks at the higher levels with this, as I mentioned above. TWF+Rapid Shot + skiprocks + palm throw = a lot of fucking rocks, that fucking kill people. There is a guy playing a build like this based on a Marrulurk in the Red Hand of Doom game in the PbP section on here, and it is really deadly already and we're only 5th level (with +1LA for free, so technically ECL6). I'm about to start one very similar to it myself.

[Saxony]

Your Warblade friend will probably want to use the Weapon Aptitude ability to swap Weapon Focus (Bite) to something more appropriate.

Lycanthropes get the Scent ability (which is pretty cool, actually, let's you detect the presence of people in 30 ft, so "FU" to sneaky types). From Savage Species, take the Improved Scent feat (doubles range of Scent to 60 ft) and the Uncanny Scent feat.

Uncanny scent lets you "pinpoint" foes within 20 ft of you using your Scent ability. I'm away from the book right now, so I don't know if this is equivalent to Blindsight or not.

Other stuff: Remember to read everything in that Lycanthrope entry from start to finish. Lycanthropes get Iron Will and +2 to Wisdom, so +3 to will saves(How this makes sense, I don't know, but use it). You also get the BAB and saves of the base animal (For a wolf, that's 3/3/0 saves, don't know about the BAB), along with all the feats they have. +2 Natural Armor in any form. There's more stuff I'm missing right now.

Lycanthropes can be pretty tanky. You could take d4 HD classes with little fear, for instance.

You might as well always stay in Hybrid Form. +2 Strength, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Natural Armor (on top of the +2 NA just from being a Lycanthrope) is nice. Along with the DR 10/Silver (and magical?).

If you ever get Polymorphed, you can change shape the next turn back into yourself. Not sure how to (ab)use this power.

[PhaedrusXY]

Lycanthropes can be pretty tanky. You could take d4 HD classes with little fear, for instance.

If it weren't for the LA, I might agree with you.

[Surreal]

Ask the DM to allow Warshaper (as written, a lycanthrope does not qualify which is stupid). Maybe also consider the Werewolf Lord (essentially a dire wolf base), which at the expense of 4 more HD gives you large size, all good saves, and +12 Str/+2 Con. Progression for that here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

[Havok4]

Ask the DM to allow Warshaper (as written, a lycanthrope does not qualify which is stupid).

No they have the shapechanger subtype so they qualify.

[Surreal]

Ask the DM to allow Warshaper (as written, a lycanthrope does not qualify which is stupid).

No they have the shapechanger subtype so they qualify.

Whoops, you're right. I knew that... I blame posting at 3am  It's always bugged me that characters with "alternate form" can't qualify though.

[KellKheraptis]

First off, werewolf lord is good.  Secondly, might see if you can use a Shapeshift druid as your class, for a Diablo II werewolf build, complete with obscene damage output (remember, shapeshift is an enhancement bonus, so can stack with your actual alternate form).  Hell, even normal druid with buffs as a Werewolf Lord would be a beast in combat, pun intended.

[Ivory Knight]

Normal Druid + Unearthed Arcana ACF Druidic Avenger = Raging Beast in Combat
Could even go Prestige Ranger, for some good archery enhancing spells.

The other UA-Variant might even be better: Already gets Ranger Goodies, but no one prevents him from entering Prestige Ranger for full BaB and ranger spells.
With a Monk's AC-Bonus & Zen Archery he won't even need a high Dex(or miss it) and could focus more on his casting stat.

[PhaedrusXY]

Hmm... could you combine the Shapeshift and Avenger variants? 

[KellKheraptis]

Hmm... could you combine the Shapeshift and Avenger variants? 

You'd need to get Animal Companion twice   Otherwise, add in Venomfire, and you're a Fury/Rabies hybrid!  Gogo Kiba!

[Anklebite]

Hmm... could you combine the Shapeshift and Avenger variants? 

You'd need to get Animal Companion twice   Otherwise, add in Venomfire, and you're a Fury/Rabies hybrid!  Gogo Kiba!

 


ok, that's it, whose going to start a diablo d20 PbP?

[KellKheraptis]

Hmm... could you combine the Shapeshift and Avenger variants? 

You'd need to get Animal Companion twice   Otherwise, add in Venomfire, and you're a Fury/Rabies hybrid!  Gogo Kiba!

 


ok, that's it, whose going to start a diablo d20 PbP?

I'll play a druid   Just...patch plz so I get the same benefit from IAS as every other class (other than WW barbs, but they need so pathetically little it's not even worth mentioning)