Author Topic: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.  (Read 2759 times)

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Hallack

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How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« on: April 07, 2010, 11:54:44 AM »
I started to put this in GM gameology but it will get more traffic and feedback here and it certainly does have min/max core in regards to maximizing the use of these character abilities.

I'm basically wanting to collect information on the use of various divination spells, particularly the information gathering sorts like  Augury, Divination, Commune, Legend Lore, etc..

For both DMs and Players use of Divinations can run the gambit from suck to awesome largely depending on how a gaming group understands how to use and incorporate them into the game.

So what is some good advice on how to use and incorporate Divinations into the game in a way that allow them to be effective without perhaps giving up too much information?

What suggestions do we have for DM handling of Divinations?

What suggestions for Player use of Divinations?

Depending on the degree of feedback and good information gained I will try to turn this into an educational handbook on how to handle Divinations.

All feedback welcome.  How does your group handle the use of these sometimes problematic spells?
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Unbeliever

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 12:43:38 PM »
On handling divinations: 

If it's a small part of the concept, i.e., you're going to throw the occasional Omen of Peril or Divination or Commune to answer some specific questions, then my groups haven't had much difficulty.  Usually the player has a particular question in mind, and w/in the parameters of the spells they get an answer.  Even though we could, of course, make hardcore nested conditional inquiries (a long string of if-then statements), we don't -- we all DM enough to know how hard it is to answer divinations intelligently. 

If someone wants to make it a core element of their concept, one thing I've suggested is that it give them some spontaneous type ability.  For example, if you cast the appropriate divinations maybe you can leave a spell slot or 2 free, as you "predicted" this would be useful in the future.  I worked on a gypsy seer concept for someone and I allowed them to have a pool of random magic items available for this purpose -- but they weren't a full spellcaster. 

Something like that is how other games deal w/ stuff like gadgets or characters like Batman who always seem to have the right tool for the job.  You could even set up a system of "divination points" where the player can store them by casting the right spells (and using magic items, class abilities, etc.) and can then spend them as I described above. 

All this should make the player feel like Divinations are useful w/out avoiding too many of the headaches. 

awaken DM golem

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 05:54:58 PM »
My personal houserule is:
Divination of spell level X, reveals info at approximately the same level of general spells / char levels AND the specifics of the divination spell.

This way, there are 2 limiters on what a Div reveals.
It's easier to figure out, how to mingle this into your home game.
After that, I compare it to what lesser and greater Divs give, and then shoot the gap.
Sometimes a Div can be a substitute for a skill check, and not just Knowledge type.

dark_samuari

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 11:48:01 PM »
 A fun and manageable way to handle divination is to answer the questions proposed by your players with riddles or puzzles. This happens all the time in mythology so just take it, it works...

Hallack

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 11:56:31 AM »
A fun and manageable way to handle divination is to answer the questions proposed by your players with riddles or puzzles. This happens all the time in mythology so just take it, it works...

Riddles, Rhymes, and puzzles can be fun  but how do you determine how much information and what kinds to give out?
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veekie

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 06:39:54 PM »
Well, the real reason for riddles is the multiple interpretation matter, which will only be clear in hindsight.
Couching terms(particularly identifiers) in vague, semi poetic descriptors help a lot in flexibility, since you only need ONE of the possible combinations to come true.
Bit hard to do on the fly though.
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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 06:48:00 PM »
Well, the real reason for riddles is the multiple interpretation matter, which will only be clear in hindsight.
Couching terms(particularly identifiers) in vague, semi poetic descriptors help a lot in flexibility, since you only need ONE of the possible combinations to come true.
Bit hard to do on the fly though.

yeah, hard to spontaneously prophecise. I once made a prophecy for a campaign, but I made sure to have at least three different ways it could come true. vexed the hell out of my players, who were probably expecting some kind of obvious railroad.
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jseah

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 10:37:38 PM »
Personally, I handle Contact Other Plane (and the like) by allowing the player to predecide what he will do. 

Usually, this refers to tying up a spell slot. 
eg. No (Default) -> Prepares X.  Yes -> Prepares Y.  The game goes on as if the player has prepared X.  If/When the answer becomes clear, and it turns out to be yes, the slot immediately becomes Y. (the player has no choice in this matter)
If the player uses X in any way (including using it to satisfy requirements like reserve feats if Y could not also satisfy that requirement) before the answer is clear, it gets "locked in" (you decided to prepare X anyway regardless of answer)

For non-yes/no questions, I ask the player to define a set of meanings of possible answers, then I choose the closest of them based on the answer when it becomes clear.  There's always an "other" category in this case for inconclusive answers. 

Akalsaris

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 11:29:14 PM »
I feel a bit guilty, but as a DM, I tend to handle them on the fly and a case-by-case basis.  Generally the main villains of my campaigns are very social overlords and whatnot, so they are magically protected from scrying and the like as a matter of course.  Predicting the future is usually my guess based on the CR of the next encounter and vague plans for the game.  One group of PCs has a crystal ball of scrying with built-in telepathy, so they tend to use divinations frequently, but others not so much.

As a player, I've never really used them.  Right now, I don't think I even have any characters that could cast them aside from my druid and swift hunter.  Just not my style, I guess.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 04:57:40 PM »
I don't touch it with a stick. If my players can do it, every enemy they fight can. Who wants scy'n'die raiding parties at midnight? Oops, that would be me to prevent casters from getting a good night sleep  :lol
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Anklebite

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 05:27:02 PM »
I don't touch it with a stick. If my players can do it, every enemy they fight can. Who wants scy'n'die raiding parties at midnight? Oops, that would be me to prevent casters from getting a good night sleep  :lol
best be packing transdimensional acid fogs. gotta deal with those pesky rope tricks, you know.
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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 12:38:29 PM »
I don't touch it with a stick. If my players can do it, every enemy they fight can. Who wants scy'n'die raiding parties at midnight? Oops, that would be me to prevent casters from getting a good night sleep  :lol
best be packing transdimensional acid fogs. gotta deal with those pesky rope tricks, you know.
And Evard's at the entrance, so they really cannot get away, even if they want. (Yes, my parties tend not to grasp mechanics in a way that let's them shut down an entangle or Evard's spell used against them)
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DavidWL

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 04:06:26 PM »
I like the model where the divination tells you a lot ... but the opponent is so strong, or the problem so big, that it still requires creativity, tactics, etc.

Best,
David
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Brainpiercing

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Re: How to handle Divinations as a DM and a Player.
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 05:05:35 PM »
I like the model where the divination tells you a lot ... but the opponent is so strong, or the problem so big, that it still requires creativity, tactics, etc.

Best,
David
That's probably a good way to deal with this kind of problem. If the answer to the problem isn't obvious even if you basically know a lot about it, then it remains a problem.

However, future predictions remain a problem, and IMHO they can only be reliably handled in god-mode: I.e. if they ask the wrong questions (i.e. not sufficiently open-ended to handle) and I can't possibly give them an answer now, then I still give them one, and god-mode events until the divination becomes true - even if this means breaking rules or letting impossible things happen.

I do like the conditional preparation, too, though.