Author Topic: Spotting Distance  (Read 9056 times)

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Littha

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2010, 03:33:56 AM »
Going from real life information the furthest object the human eye can see it 6,213,711,920,000,000,000 miles. Actually seeing definition at that range is obviously impossible though.

Anklebite

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2010, 03:40:42 AM »
Going from real life information the furthest object the human eye can see it 6,213,711,920,000,000,000 miles. Actually seeing definition at that range is obviously impossible though.
....stellar bodies don't fucking count.  and did it have to be in imperial measurements?
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Surreal

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2010, 03:42:39 AM »
Going from real life information the furthest object the human eye can see it 6,213,711,920,000,000,000 miles. Actually seeing definition at that range is obviously impossible though.
....stellar bodies don't fucking count.  and did it have to be in imperial measurements?

You know, beyond a certain point I don't think it really matters whether we're using imperial or metric.
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Anklebite

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2010, 03:44:35 AM »
Going from real life information the furthest object the human eye can see it 6,213,711,920,000,000,000 miles. Actually seeing definition at that range is obviously impossible though.
....stellar bodies don't fucking count.  and did it have to be in imperial measurements?

You know, beyond a certain point I don't think it really matters whether we're using imperial or metric.
I can remember the speed of light in meters per second. not so much ft/mi.

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Littha

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2010, 03:44:53 AM »
It's 10 million trillion Km if you really need it.

Or 2.5 million light years
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 03:47:44 AM by Littha »

Anklebite

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2010, 03:52:14 AM »
It's 10 million trillion Km if you really need it.

Or 2.5 million light years
ah. best to use scientific notation then.  :P
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2010, 08:07:33 AM »
Well I guess I can't explain things very well but... it's a little different when you already know that about 400' feet away is a ram statue.  Did you ever talk to anyone and ask them, "Hey what did you think about the ram statue by the field?", and have them reply, "The what?", and then you wondered how they could possibly miss it?

Some people are just oblivious.  :embarrassed


I'm just saying that I've played a bit of paintball, and there's a difference between knowing someone is about 150 feet to your 10 o'clock because you've been stalking them for 10 minutes and nervously glancing around hoping to catch some camouflaged movement at that same distance out of the corner of your eye.

And failing to spot mountains and the moon?  C'mon, that's silly.  The DM's guide does say that the vast majority of the time the players don't need to roll to notice the blatantly obvious, if only because excessive rolling slows down the game.  Spot is only used for things an average person might not immediately see.

So it's mostly DM fiat in the end, ain't it?

The point is really not people hiding, or even moving tactically. But seeing a walking group of people across flat plains, even with just a casual sweeping look (like anybody just walking along the plains has plenty of time for), should be possible at around 900 to 1200 feet. YES the terrain has to allow it, but we're talking about the hard limits these rules impose. I would use those rules for opposed checks, nothing else.
The point is: D&D characters are assumed to always do the optimum in their situation, anyway. Which is why they, for instance, get free reactive spot checks vs. a guy arbitrarily hiding from them. So they SHOULD also be assumed to not just look at their feet while marching around the country-side. On horseback it's even easier, at least at overland speed. You could even assume to be always taking 20 while mounted, because directing a mount even in combat is a free action (with a piddly ride check), it should be plenty free during overland travel.

Forests are entirely another matter. I don't think those distance are too far off the mark. And within hills or mountains I would say you just have to make a game map. You can see from one rise to the next rise, or a long way from the highest peak.

Personally, though, I don't like the system of these rolls for maximum distance.

Massive House-rule ahead

I suggest: A terrain modifier on the spot check, and let the spot check decide maximum distance.

Let's say noticing a medium creature in unobstructed view which is not trying to hide, and while casually looking around, as if during overland movement, is a DC 01 at, let's say 30 feet. [edit]Changed this or else my numbers are ALL off.[/edit]

Now on a given spot roll every +1 over that increases this distance by 30ft.

Terrain puts a percentile modifier on that distance.
Creature size puts another percentile modifier on it
Obstruction, i.e. undergrowth, high grass, clumps of trees, etc, put another percentile.
Distraction has the usual -5 modifier on the check
Lighting conditions modify the check
Special conditions modify either the percentile or the check, for example, noticing a group of torch-bearing people in the dark can be even easier than spotting them during the daytime, so this modifies the percentile.

All the percentiles in the end are added up. You roll your check, apply the percentile, and that's the distance at which you automatically notice a creatures that is not trying to hide. One roll may also determine several sightings: For instance the total percentile to notice a Huge Dire Elephant in a forest may be something like 50%, but the band of halflings end up at 30%.

What this does is putting the focus on the character, and not on a fixed distance roll. It also cuts down on rolling: You make ONE roll, which counts until you see something. If something happens, for instance a fight, then you make another roll after that, when you move on.

A character who does nothing but spot checks, or devotes at least a move action to spotting each round, can be assumed to take 20 all the time.

An example:
Todd the halfling Ranger has a +10 spot modifier.
While walking through the plains, he rolls a 12, giving him +22 on his spot roll.
With no modifiers, this equates to noticing a medium creature, without any obstructions at 660ft
He is small, which imposes a -10% on the distance percentile
There is high grass, which imposes a -30% on the distance percentile.
There is mild rolling of the terrain, which imposes another -15%

Now there's a -55% on the distance percentile. This equates to noticing a medium creature at 297ft.
A small creature subtracts another -10% -> 231feet
A large creature adds +10% -> 363 feet

Now you might want to roll to the closes 5 or 10 feet.

Now Todd gets on his riding dog mount. He is now of medium height (eye-height counts). He can direct his mount as a free action, he can therefore take 20 on general spotting all the time.
His spot check is now 30, equating a 900ft distance to spot a medium creature without obstructions. He can notice a medium creature under the same conditions as before at 495ft. He can notice the same small creature as before at 405ft, and a large creature at 585ft.

He enters a forest, which imposes a total -80% terrain modifier(maybe made up of -60% for trees and -20% for undergrowth). So it's 180ft for a medium creature, 90ft for a small creature.

A tiny creature might already reach a -100% percentile, now we need a defaul rule: While you can see under the lighting conditions you always notice someone who is not hiding at 30ft. If you can't see, then you'll have to resort to listening.

Now he might climb the highest hill in the area. He gains a +30% on his percentile for high ground.

We can use the same mechanism for opposed rolls:
Your base increment of distance is 30ft for +-0. Every additional 30ft impose a -1 on your check. Now apply the distance percentile, but without counting the modifiers based on the size of the spottee (BUT counting those of the spotter) to the 30ft, and you have your new distance increment. For instance, in above example of the plains, to notice someone who is hiding, Todd riding his dog will take a -1 to his spot check every 16ft. To notice a hiding creature at his maximum distance of 495ft he will take a -31 to his spot check - this is rather futile. So even the simple ACT of hiding will drastically reduce the distance you can be spotted at. But at around 160feet he has an even chance of spotting someone without a bonus to the hide skill.

(Now look what this means for sniping: The sniper could put an arrow into him, hide with -20, and still be pretty well hidden.)

As a further provision, of course you can't take 20 on opposed spot checks unless you already know, or at least suspect, something is there, and you are scanning a limited viewing angle for a prolonged amount of time. You take your two minutes on that area, and then you  can take 20.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 09:37:41 AM by Brainpiercing »

carnivore

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2010, 08:48:43 AM »

The point is really not people hiding, or even moving tactically. But seeing a walking group of people across flat plains, even with just a casual sweeping look (like anybody just walking along the plains has plenty of time for), should be possible at around 900 to 1200 feet. YES the terrain has to allow it, but we're talking about the hard limits these rules impose. I would use those rules for opposed checks, nothing else.
The point is: D&D characters are assumed to always do the optimum in their situation, anyway. Which is why they, for instance, get free reactive spot checks vs. a guy arbitrarily hiding from them. So they SHOULD also be assumed to not just look at their feet while marching around the country-side. On horseback it's even easier, at least at overland speed. You could even assume to be always taking 20 while mounted, because directing a mount even in combat is a free action (with a piddly ride check), it should be plenty free during overland travel.

Forests are entirely another matter. I don't think those distance are too far off the mark. And within hills or mountains I would say you just have to make a game map. You can see from one rise to the next rise, or a long way from the highest peak.


i disagree .... when i DM, you are not doing something, unless you say your character is doing it .... even then, spotting something from Horseback is not as easy as you might think ..... even in the Plains where there is realtively wide open spaces ... finding something different is not that easy

 :D

Brainpiercing

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2010, 10:06:44 AM »
There are multiple instance where optimum behaviour is assumed in the PHB or SRD. In any case, I haven't yet played in a group where setting a behavioural standard was impossible. So, any group would just say, "we always spot while moving". Anything else is tedious. Of course they still have to roll themselves, the same as when the "I always sneak down the hall" rogue does not make his rolls, then he's not hiding.

And whether such things are difficult in real life is not the point, at least not for me. Assume you are a level 1 Expert with up to 4 ranks in spot and mediocre wisdom (I tend to think most posters here are rather up on INT than Wis :D). Things might be hard for YOU, but not necessarily for a character in a fantasy game. People do superhuman things all the time, and not just using magic. In fact, Skills SHOULD far extend what is humanly possible.
So if a character can direct his mount as a free action through tumultuous combat, I don't think he should need to take move actions or more to direct it out of combat. Which frees him up entirely, and if he chooses to spot all the time, then that's what he's doing.

I also DISLIKE starting encounters at ambush point. Or rather, I dislike having encounters started on me at such distances, even in open spaces. So finding a suitable rule is quite important, IMHO. It also makes no sense using the normal rules, because they make no provision for superhuman skill levels at all. I have a minion of my character in an epic game with about a +120 spot modifier. There is no reason this guy should not be able to spot a mouse from a mile away - or more. But he could never do that, using the normal rules. He would walk along, and suddenly have things popping up on him at the fixed distance roll, at which point he automatically spots them even with a roll of 1. I mean that's like the worse computer-game fog-of-war thing or view distance limiter to save computing power.

Senevri

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2010, 10:36:37 AM »
Resolution.

How much the object is taking of your field of view. Of course, near-impossible to rule... but, basically, a large creature should be detectable at 2x distance, and so on and so forth. judging from medium humanoids, creatures are roughly as tall as the side of the square they take, so a tarrasque would be as detectable from a distance of, mh, 60ft, as a human would be at 10ft, taking about half of the height of your field-of-view. So, if a spot dc to detect a human at 100ft would be 10, the DC to spot a halfling would be 20, and the DC to spot a tarrasque would be, uh, roughly 0, or DC 10 at... 600ft?

Yeah, houserule, but makes some sense, I think.

That being said, spotting a human at 600ft really shouldn't be a DC 60. Large objects - say, CARS, are obvious at 600ft, if you're looking for them - IE, making a spot check. On the other hand, a moose on a forest background would be practically invisible, so...

carnivore

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2010, 05:51:39 PM »
There are multiple instance where optimum behaviour is assumed in the PHB or SRD. In any case, I haven't yet played in a group where setting a behavioural standard was impossible. So, any group would just say, "we always spot while moving". Anything else is tedious. Of course they still have to roll themselves, the same as when the "I always sneak down the hall" rogue does not make his rolls, then he's not hiding.
which would be fine if he had the Feat: Quick Reconoiter then he could do it as a Free action... but making an Active Spot check is a Move Action under Normal Circumstances... a Hide Check can be made as Part of Movement so it is irrelavant

that is the whole point about making a Spot check.... it requires Attention to detail, not reflex alone ... riding a Horse is very easy, even Directing a Trained Mount(Warhorse) in combat is easy for an experienced Rider ..... finding a single Target on a Battlefield is another matter completely. some things are not even trying to Hide... they just remain Still and most predators dont even see them, Our eyes and those of other predators tend to key on Movement, thats why sometimes you might be walking in the woods and scare a Rabbit that was sitting just a few feet from you that you didnt even see because it was Motionless ..... making a Hide Check should not make it easier for Characters to spot you.

 :D 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2010, 06:18:55 PM »
Yes, but making a Spot check every round while directing a horse is perfectly legal within the rules. I'm not sure what the disagreement is here, or even if there is one...
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carnivore

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2010, 06:29:40 PM »
actually im just saying that the Guildelines as they stand are just fine .... there are very few houserules that need to be made ... the Distances for Spot checks and the Modifiers will work as listed

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2010, 07:39:26 PM »
actually im just saying that the Guildelines as they stand are just fine .... there are very few houserules that need to be made ... the Distances for Spot checks and the Modifiers will work as listed

 :D
They work if you absolutely WANT to fit a battle on a 100x100ft square, or whatever size your grid-map has. If you don't, the rules don't work.

What is also stupid is that it actually IS easier to spot people if they are hiding badly, than if they are not hiding at all, because as long as they make a hide check I can make a free-action reactive spot check, which I am not allowed to do as long as they are not hiding.
So people should be allowed a casual, free-action spot check each round during which they are not distracted, or at least once per "scene", so that the rolling doesn't get out of hand, to see stuff that is not hiding.

nijineko

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Re: Spotting Distance
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2010, 02:29:50 AM »
i note that the spot check rules say something to the effect of "spotting the nearby presence of others..." implying that the stated rules don't apply to something not nearby, and/or not a presence....
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