Author Topic: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?  (Read 9362 times)

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LunaticsLament

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Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« on: March 27, 2010, 07:39:56 PM »
Has anyone ever attempted to engineer a Beguiler (magical creature from Shining South pg 60.) into a PC race?  I could see it working without horrible LA if the True Seeing ability was scaled to as not to fully kick in until later levels, similar to how WotC engineered the Raptoran's Flight.
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NiteCyper

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2010, 08:11:18 PM »
[-0700 27/03/2010 Sat 15:13:46]
re: LA: they have an LA of +0.

nitecyper'sealthandbook [sic] excerpt
[spoiler]+6 Dex, +2 Int, Str >9: -4, Str 9-8 (inclusive): -3, Str <8: -2, Rake (Ex) with four claws, True Seeing/Sight (Su), Skills: +8 Climb, able to take 10 even when rushed or threatened; with dry fur: +8 Hide, Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, true sight, small magical beast, speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 10 ft., 2 claw attacks, bite, (hairless) prehensile tail that can wield, Multiattack bonus feat, own language (Beguiler),
"A Small character gets a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks. A Small character’s carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium character." -4 grapple
http://img251.yfrog.com/img251/5042/shs60n61beguiler.png Beguiler bglr bguiler bguilr beguilr
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#magicalBeastType

Inexplicable bonuses (racial class): Fort +2, Ref +2, Base Attack +1
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm Multiattack

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
http://yfrog.com/6zshs60n61beguilerp
[/spoiler]

quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: JanusJones
I like Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe for concealment. I've managed a +31 Hide mod on a 1st level Whispergnome Lurk (Chameleon for a +10, +8 from Race/Size, +5 from Dex, +4 from ranks, +4 from Shape Soulmeld - Kruthik Claws), which ends up being +11 when making a full attack - not bad for 1st level, and a pretty solid defense and attack, all things considered (you have a good chance of not being seen, which fuels sneak attack AND keeps you safe!). You need Ranged Lurk Augment to finish it off, though, so you can snipe (since Fellmist's concealment goes away when you're standing right next to your target).

I LOVE good Darkstalker-based Hide characters. My current fave is a Beguiler (the pikachu critters from FRCS - Shining South) Rogue/Umbral Disciple/Totemist, whose Hide modifier (between a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, a +12 from size/race, a 26 Dex, full ranks, camoflauged/muffled armor, and Kruthik Claws) is something like +60. He pounces with Craven each round, shredding for decent amounts of damage (though nothing like what a "real" charger could do - somewhere around 100 points a round). The real fun with him is the combination of the effective invisibility, the one-hit nuke factor, a climb speed, and telepathy+Mindsight (yay for Shedu Crown!). He moves one room ahead of the party, trapfinding and assassinating solo enemies, and telepathically informs everybody of what to expect. He's become a tactical lynchpin for the party, and everybody appreciates knowing what to expect, being able to plan ahead, and never having to deal with traps or non-challenging encounters.

The whole "true sight all the time" thing is pretty sweet too.

Yeah, I know Beguilers are kind of borked, but it's a heavy-play game and I'm DM-ing; technically, my pokemon ninja master is more of a facilitator and deus-ex-machina than anything else (especially since they never see him anymore, and he's always just talking in their MINDS). It works out - I've been meaning to remove him from the party now that they've had enough tactical training to make it on their own (I optimize the HELL out of encounters and am BRUTAL tactically on my players - and they LOVE it!), but they enjoy him so much (he's kind of Belkar-esque; a Neutral Evil, arrogant, "Triumph the insult dog"-style comic relief character) that they've lobbied to keep him, and I have so much damn fun playing him I haven't had the heart to do it.

Plus, they've been fighting a lot of demons lately, and everything in MY world with telepathy has Mindsight - about the only thing bar lucky aim with Glitterdust that really annoys a slick Darkstalker. The Beguiler's been getting chewed up a bit, lately.

Good to see you, TG! You're missed here, mang.
Simple Warlock Trick: Wall of Gloom http://web.archive.org/web/20080507212239/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991343

Quote from: Thatguythatpostedunderneathmeinthe 'MeleePixie'thread
You could always get yourself a Sword of Graceful Strikes from A&E Guide which adds dex to damage instead of strength. Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe is one of the easiest and most effective ways to grab concealment for hiding. It's mist, so enemies can't see through it with Darkvision (unless they're right next to you), but you can see through it just fine. This makes it ideal for snipers, who can snipe at range from their clouds without fear of detection (provided, of course, their Hide mod is high enough to suck the -20 penalty - something that isn't that hard with a bit of work!). Beguilers are a sort-of "ultimate 0 ECL race" for sneakers. The +8 racial Hide mod, +6 Dex, and +4 from size total up to a whopping +15 to Hide. Add on true seeing, a climb speed, +2 Int, darkvision, and lowlight vision, and you've got the best possible base race for . . . anything, really, but particularly awesome for roguey types. Shedu Crown can be crown-bound for telepathy. The thing that makes the feat worth it is that you can get a chakra bind from a 4th level spell: Open Least Chakra. The cool thing about this spell is that if you sock it into a "schema" from Magic of Eberron, you get 2 uses of it per day. It lasts for 24 hours, so one use of the item gets you a whole day of telepathy - add on Mindsight and you're good to go! The schema will run you 11,500 gold, which is not bad at all for the payoff.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 08:51:55 PM by NiteCyper »
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

LunaticsLament

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2010, 08:31:03 PM »
NOBODY ELSE P{OST

[-0700 27/03/2010 Sat 15:13:46]
re: LA: they have an LA of +0.

nitecyper'sealthandbook [sic] excerpthttp://img251.yfrog.com/img251/5042/shs60n61beguiler.png Beguiler bglr bguiler bguilr beguilr
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#magicalBeastType

Inexplicable bonuses (racial class): Fort +2, Ref +2, Base Attack +1
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm Multiattack

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
http://yfrog.com/6zshs60n61beguilerp
[/spoiler]

quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: JanusJones
I like Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe for concealment. I've managed a +31 Hide mod on a 1st level Whispergnome Lurk (Chameleon for a +10, +8 from Race/Size, +5 from Dex, +4 from ranks, +4 from Shape Soulmeld - Kruthik Claws), which ends up being +11 when making a full attack - not bad for 1st level, and a pretty solid defense and attack, all things considered (you have a good chance of not being seen, which fuels sneak attack AND keeps you safe!). You need Ranged Lurk Augment to finish it off, though, so you can snipe (since Fellmist's concealment goes away when you're standing right next to your target).

I LOVE good Darkstalker-based Hide characters. My current fave is a Beguiler (the pikachu critters from FRCS - Shining South) Rogue/Umbral Disciple/Totemist, whose Hide modifier (between a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, a +12 from size/race, a 26 Dex, full ranks, camoflauged/muffled armor, and Kruthik Claws) is something like +60. He pounces with Craven each round, shredding for decent amounts of damage (though nothing like what a "real" charger could do - somewhere around 100 points a round). The real fun with him is the combination of the effective invisibility, the one-hit nuke factor, a climb speed, and telepathy+Mindsight (yay for Shedu Crown!). He moves one room ahead of the party, trapfinding and assassinating solo enemies, and telepathically informs everybody of what to expect. He's become a tactical lynchpin for the party, and everybody appreciates knowing what to expect, being able to plan ahead, and never having to deal with traps or non-challenging encounters.

The whole "true sight all the time" thing is pretty sweet too.

Yeah, I know Beguilers are kind of borked, but it's a heavy-play game and I'm DM-ing; technically, my pokemon ninja master is more of a facilitator and deus-ex-machina than anything else (especially since they never see him anymore, and he's always just talking in their MINDS). It works out - I've been meaning to remove him from the party now that they've had enough tactical training to make it on their own (I optimize the HELL out of encounters and am BRUTAL tactically on my players - and they LOVE it!), but they enjoy him so much (he's kind of Belkar-esque; a Neutral Evil, arrogant, "Triumph the insult dog"-style comic relief character) that they've lobbied to keep him, and I have so much damn fun playing him I haven't had the heart to do it.

Plus, they've been fighting a lot of demons lately, and everything in MY world with telepathy has Mindsight - about the only thing bar lucky aim with Glitterdust that really annoys a slick Darkstalker. The Beguiler's been getting chewed up a bit, lately.

Good to see you, TG! You're missed here, mang.
Simple Warlock Trick: Wall of Gloom http://web.archive.org/web/20080507212239/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991343

Quote from: Thatguythatpostedunderneathmeinthe 'MeleePixie'thread
You could always get yourself a Sword of Graceful Strikes from A&E Guide which adds dex to damage instead of strength. Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe is one of the easiest and most effective ways to grab concealment for hiding. It's mist, so enemies can't see through it with Darkvision (unless they're right next to you), but you can see through it just fine. This makes it ideal for snipers, who can snipe at range from their clouds without fear of detection (provided, of course, their Hide mod is high enough to suck the -20 penalty - something that isn't that hard with a bit of work!). Beguilers are a sort-of "ultimate 0 ECL race" for sneakers. The +8 racial Hide mod, +6 Dex, and +4 from size total up to a whopping +15 to Hide. Add on true seeing, a climb speed, +2 Int, darkvision, and lowlight vision, and you've got the best possible base race for . . . anything, really, but particularly awesome for roguey types. Shedu Crown can be crown-bound for telepathy. The thing that makes the feat worth it is that you can get a chakra bind from a 4th level spell: Open Least Chakra. The cool thing about this spell is that if you sock it into a "schema" from Magic of Eberron, you get 2 uses of it per day. It lasts for 24 hours, so one use of the item gets you a whole day of telepathy - add on Mindsight and you're good to go! The schema will run you 11,500 gold, which is not bad at all for the payoff.
[/spoiler]

First off, I'm wondering why you are saying that no one else should post or discuss this, as I would actually enjoy getting a varied opinion as well as your excellent contributions.  Secondly, the reason I asked is because the LA you are quoting is for obtaining them as cohorts, not as PCs.
"The capacity of the human mind for swallowing nonsense and spewing it forth in violent and repressive action has never yet been plumbed. "
~Robert Heinlein

NiteCyper

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2010, 08:52:19 PM »
[spoiler]Sorry about my enthusiasm. I changed the start of my last post.

This is a biased argument: I don't see an exception that says you can't play them as PC race. What I do know is that when given an LA, they are suitable as a PC race.

"Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics."[/spoiler] What does the "(cohort)" text beside the level-adjustment mean?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 09:19:53 PM by NiteCyper »
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LunaticsLament

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2010, 09:15:37 PM »
Sorry about my enthusiasm. I changed the start of my last post.

Ah, now worries, I was just a bit taken aback :)
"The capacity of the human mind for swallowing nonsense and spewing it forth in violent and repressive action has never yet been plumbed. "
~Robert Heinlein

Anklebite

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2010, 09:19:25 PM »
play a beguiler beguiler.
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Havok4

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2010, 10:08:16 PM »
Which is actually really good due to the stealth and sensory synergy.

Mushroom

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2010, 10:17:27 PM »
Rat


I've always called them pikachu's

Petal Sorc with beguiler familiar

Fluffles

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2010, 10:24:19 PM »
Petal can't be played. Cohorts only.

Mushroom

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2010, 10:26:51 PM »
Petal can't be played. Cohorts only.
And neither can Beguilers, but it was an amusing thought

NiteCyper

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2010, 10:37:38 PM »
Petal can't be played. Cohorts only.
I'm trying to find the text that says this. Could you point it out?

MMIII, page 7
[spoiler]"Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for
use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with
Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable
thumbs). Add this number to the creature’s total Hit Dice,
including class levels, to get the creature’s effective character
level (ECL). A character’s ECL affects the experience the char-
acter earns, the amount of experience the character must have
before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equip-
ment. See pages 172, 199, and 209 of the Dungeon Master’s
Guide for more information."[/spoiler]

MMI, page 7
[spoiler]"Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as
player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence
scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs). Add this
number to the creature’s total Hit Dice, including class levels, to
get the creature’s effective character level (ECL). A character’s ECL
affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experi-
ence the character must have before gaining a new level, and the
character’s starting equipment. See pages 172, 199, and 209 of the
Dungeon Master’s Guide for more information."[/spoiler]

The MMII doesn't address "cohorts" at all.

MMV, page 213
[spoiler]"Level Adjustment: Certain monsters can used as the basis
for interesting, viable player characters. These creatures have
a level adjustment entry, which is a number that is added
to the creature’s total Hit Dice to arrive at its effective
character level. A creature that has multiple special abilities
is more powerful as a player character than its Hit Dice
alone indicate. For example, a kuo-toa’s level adjustment +3
indicates that a 1st-level kuo-toa wizard is the equivalent
of a 3rd-level character.
 Level adjustment is not the same as an adjustment to a
creature’s Challenge Rating because of some special quali-
ties it possesses. Challenge Rating refl  ects how diffi  cult
an opponent is to fi  ght in a limited number of encounters.
Level adjustment shows how powerful a creature is as a
player character or cohort in campaign play. For instance,
a drow receives a +1 adjustment to its Challenge Rating
to account for its special abilities, indicating that it’s
tougher in a fight than its Hit Dice would suggest, but
its level adjustment is +2 to balance its abilities over long-
term play."[/sub]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104849
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 10:48:17 PM by NiteCyper »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 10:44:55 PM »
Even if (cohort) means it may only be used as a cohort... that's fucking stupid. And any DM who isn't a complete tool to RAW will let you play it. It's not even that great. True Seeing sounds strong but is pretty niche until high levels. And at that point... you have it anyways.

NiteCyper

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 10:53:31 PM »
It's not even that great. True Seeing sounds strong but is pretty niche until high levels. And at that point... you have it anyways.
True Seeing isn't the great part about them, it's the bonuses to Hide. +4 size +8 racial +3 Dex mod racial bonus + 4 base Dex mod + 1 Dex mod bonus from Unseelie Fey + 4 ranks + 1 bonus from Flexible Mind = +25 Hide check mod. There's also the Fade into Darkness feat to expend a use of a Darkness SLA for +5 to Hide. Couple this with the Blend into Shadows feat and an invoker class for swift-action HiPS from level 1. The Beguiler only gets a bonus to Move Silently from their Dex bonus (+3 mod).

Consider: Beguiler HNRT Fighter with Weapon Finesse can get +8 to their melee attacks and damage rolls, against flat-footed AC. Shadow Blade feat, multiple natural attacks (two claws, bite, prehensile tail, rake), Dead Eye feat, Specialist Fighter Targetteer's Vital Aim special attack option,

Luckily, the Whisper Gnome is a close second to the best racial option for a (sneaky) Dragonfire Adept. The Whisper Gnome gets +4 from size, +5 racially, +1 Dex mod bonus for a total of +10 Hide check mod bonus as opposed to the Beguiler's 15. The Whisper Gnome gets a +5 bonus to Move Silently +1 Dex mod bonus, not to mention their Silence SLA.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 11:12:16 PM by NiteCyper »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2010, 11:24:41 PM »
And a Human Wizard 1 with Pre Apr can Alter Self. And a Ghost Savage Progression 1 can... do that.

It's a top notch choice for hiding, there is no doubt. But it's not overpowering by any means. I'd Human before Beguiler... often.

LunaticsLament

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2010, 11:39:37 PM »
It's not even that great. True Seeing sounds strong but is pretty niche until high levels. And at that point... you have it anyways.
True Seeing isn't the great part about them, it's the bonuses to Hide. +4 size +8 racial +3 Dex mod racial bonus + 4 base Dex mod + 1 Dex mod bonus from Unseelie Fey + 4 ranks + 1 bonus from Flexible Mind = +25 Hide check mod. There's also the Fade into Darkness feat to expend a use of a Darkness SLA for +5 to Hide. Couple this with the Blend into Shadows feat and an invoker class for swift-action HiPS from level 1. The Beguiler only gets a bonus to Move Silently from their Dex bonus (+3 mod).

Consider: Beguiler HNRT Fighter with Weapon Finesse can get +8 to their melee attacks and damage rolls, against flat-footed AC. Shadow Blade feat, multiple natural attacks (two claws, bite, prehensile tail, rake), Dead Eye feat, Specialist Fighter Targetteer's Vital Aim special attack option,

Luckily, the Whisper Gnome is a close second to the best racial option for a (sneaky) Dragonfire Adept. The Whisper Gnome gets +4 from size, +5 racially, +1 Dex mod bonus for a total of +10 Hide check mod bonus as opposed to the Beguiler's 15. The Whisper Gnome gets a +5 bonus to Move Silently +1 Dex mod bonus, not to mention their Silence SLA.

So do you think that it would be a +1 LA?  I think it could even be reduced to that by scaling the gaining of True Seeing so as to assuage the concerns of more conservative DMs.
"The capacity of the human mind for swallowing nonsense and spewing it forth in violent and repressive action has never yet been plumbed. "
~Robert Heinlein

gorfnad

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2010, 02:55:14 AM »
Currently playing a Beguiler Beguiler in a campaign. Beguilers (race) are very easy to play in most situations, however there are some interesting role-playing aspects that come up when playing them such as being considered "vermin" by other races, being mistaken as a familiar or animal companion, getting fitted equipment like armor (barding), having to be slightly gear dependent (bags of holding, handy haversacks) because of low strength score, and many others. There really is no need to increase the LA since unless you're dealing with a lot of illusions or invisible creatures True Sight really does not come up that much until higher levels when spellcasters would have access to the True Sight or other spells anyways.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 03:45:49 AM by gorfnad »

McPoyo

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2010, 11:26:39 AM »
I played a beguiler binder once. It was rather amusing, and worked fairly well, capitalizing on making as many attacks in a round as possible while stacking as many extra sources of damage onto each hit as possible. Sure your attacks do horrible base damage, but that doesn't particularly matter a whole lot at that point.

Also: High will save vs illusions and/or sense motive and/or spot works to defeat a pretty solid chunk of the things true sight displays for free. Arcane Sight. Hell, even Detect Magic if you aren't in combat.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2010, 12:01:22 PM »
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

McPoyo

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2010, 12:06:21 PM »
This little guy worked out pretty well for me :)
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1276.msg33395#msg33395
Not gonna lie, that's the character that inspired me to play one of them.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Beguiler Rat as a PC Race?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2010, 12:12:00 PM »
This little guy worked out pretty well for me :)
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1276.msg33395#msg33395
Not gonna lie, that's the character that inspired me to play one of them.
Awesome :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol