Author Topic: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.  (Read 9480 times)

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Caedrus

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A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« on: March 24, 2010, 08:59:36 PM »
Greetings All.

It's been a while since I posted here; I've been involved in a fairly big project for my campaign, and I thought I would enlist your opinions, folks.

Be warned up-front: I will now be discussing a house rule, but there is relevance to Min/Maxxing.


The really short version is that within our group we have been using a Feat Point System for feats. Well, 1058 feats later, they have been assessed - along with all the Handbooks on WotC / BG Boards to assess the relative value of each and every feat. I feel that the implementation of the system into our campaign has been phenomenally smooth and successful, but I very much recognise that there will be some folks out there who are not big fans. The rules?

1. In this system, a character gets a feat point every level, with a bonus 2 at 1st level.
2. There are flaws (maximum 2).
3. Fighters get an extra feat point per level.
4. The 'standard price' for a feat is 3 feat points.

And also:

A. This is a fairly high powered campaign.
B. Characters always start from 1st level.
C. Feat point values are assessed based on their utility, and also their potential for abuse.

So, why am I asking for your help?

Well, I have a list below of the Tiers of Feats; their feat point value ranges from 2 to 6 (consider it as Tier -1 to Tier +3, if you will). I have listed the 6 Feat Point feats, and the 5 Feat Point feats. I shall leave a space for the 4 Feat Point feats if people are interested, but what I would love to know is this:

What should be added to / deleted from the 6 FP feats?
What should be added to / deleted from the 5 FP feats?
What should be added to / deleted from the 4 FP feats? [to be included later]


In short, my question is: What are the best feats in the game?

(yes, I do understand the utter subjectivity of the question :P)

Anyway, onto the feats:
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 09:08:51 PM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 08:59:55 PM »
6 Feat Point Feats

Leadership
Natural Spell
Persistent Spell

5 Feat Point Feats

Alternate Source Spell
Arcane Thesis
Divine Metamagic
Dreadful Wrath
Earth Spell
Extra Contacts (for minimum ranks abuse)
Extra Followers
Freezing the Lifeblood
Intimidating Rage
Karmic Strike
Leap Attack
Nemesis (probably needs to go down one Tier)Sickening Sonata
Sword of the Arcane Order
Theurgic Specialist
Undead Leadership
Unquenchable Flame of Life (probably needs to go down one Tier)
Vow of Poverty (actually removed from the Campaign, but shown here for relative strength) Update: Now a 5 FP, reduced from 6 FP.
Weapon Supremacy

Note that text in blue denotes Dragon Magazine.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:08:18 AM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 09:00:23 PM »
4 Feat Point Feats

Animal Devotion
Arcane Disciple
Ascetic Knight
Ascetic Mage
Ascetic Rogue
Bane Magic
Battle Blessing
Beckon the Frozen
Blasphemous UtteranceTheurgic Creationist
Travel Devotion
Twin Spell
Two-Weapon Fighting
Uncanny Forethought
Uttercold Spell
Versatile Unarmed Strike
Water Devotion
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:05:36 AM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 09:00:45 PM »
Based on your Feedback and Discussion:

Vow of Poverty has been taken down one step to a 5 Feat Point feat.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:07:03 AM by Caedrus »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 09:30:31 PM »
Vow of poverty isn't really that good.
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snakeman830

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 09:34:28 PM »
Darkstalker, on the other hand, should rank way up there.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Anklebite

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 09:39:54 PM »
mobility should be a one-pointer, dodge a 2-pointer, and spring attack a 4-pointer.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 09:47:52 PM »
Vow of poverty isn't really that good.
+1.

It seems you're already doing this, but all early entry stuff should be 5+. And shitty core feats at 1 or 2.

Tonymitsu

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 09:48:24 PM »
Vow of Poverty is so NOT on the same level as Leadership....


If you're asking for an opinion, Leadership is easily the best and most powerful feat in D&D, possibly in a class all it's own, simply because no one feat can add so much to any build.

Draconic Cohort probably ranks a close second.



Similarly, Leap Attack isn't all that good if it isn't part of a 2h charger build.  Certainly not on the same level as Divine Metamagic (anything).

None of the combat feats (Karmic Strike, Robilar's, etc) are, IMO.

I mean, Freezing the Lifeblood?  Make and unarmed strike for no damage to force a Fort save, of all things, for 1d4+1 rounds of paralysis?  And it only works on humanoids?
How does that have the potential for any sort of utility or abuse?

Prime32

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 10:23:15 PM »
Vow of Poverty is only 6 points if you have no gold for some reason. (eg. you're an animal companion)

Otherwise, it's very weak. You could just buy enough items to replicate VoP's benefits and still have gold left over. And you lost two feats taking the vow.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Mushroom Ninja

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 10:25:07 PM »
Vow of poverty is no where near Natural Spell, Divine Metamagic, or Leadership.  It sort of sucks unless you're in an almost completely wealthless game.

I wouldn't put persist higher up than Divine Metamagic, since it only gets really good when you can reduce its cost.

Prime32

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 10:26:34 PM »
Darkstalker, on the other hand, should rank way up there.
And Mindsight?

Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation should be pretty low down. What about the +2/+2 skill bonus feats?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:28:05 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 10:27:53 PM »
I'd appreciate it if you posted the lower tiers for completeness - right now it's hard to get a sense of where things lie.  Also, are you judging feats on how useful they are to a broken build, or overall?  Earth Spell is crap unless you're a Shadowcraft Mage, after all, while Natural Spell is good regardless of what type of druid you are.

Great feats I almost always take on the right characters:

Craven (6pt)
Darkstalker (6pt)
Mindsight (6pt)
Quicken Spell (6pt)
Craft Contingent Spell (6pt)
Versatile Spellcaster (5pt)
Dreadful Wrath on anything with fear effects (5pt seems appropriate as listed)
Jotunbrud on anything with trip, grapple, or other size stuff (5pt)

Caedrus

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 10:43:14 PM »
Great responses - and thanks.

The Mad Linguist, Bears are Brown, Tonymitsu, Prime32 & Mushroom Ninja
: I haven't actually seen VoP in use; in the right circumstances, it can be abused, of course, but the feedback is appreciated. Would you place it as a 4 or a 5?

Snakeman 830: I have Darkstalker as a 4 on my yet-to-be-updated list. What are your thoughts?

Tonymitsu: To try to balance out the fighter and martial characters, there are few martial-oriented high FP feats (many of them are 2 FP feats); I guess that if someone is going for a Leap Attack style build, it really is a lynchpin for uber-damage, thus the higher FP cost. Freezing the Lifeblood was an iffy one; I guess that because so many of the truly powerful enemies (in my campaign at least) are often humanoid, then I felt the value was right - but, keen to know your thoughts - what would you give Leap Attack or Freezing the Lifeblood?

Mushroom Ninja
: Would you advocate Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic as both 5s?

Prime32: I would have to give a reasonably convoluted answer to this (happy to do so if anyone is interested!), but my standard is that in the FP currency, 1 FP = a +2 Skill, so "Acrobatic" is 2 skill points. We do use the Pathfinder (yeah, I know, heresy) system whereby he bonuses increase with the ' +2/+2 Skill' feats.

Akalsaris: A great question, and hard to answer; it's very difficult to get a system that has the feats (written as they are), and to place a value that works for both a Min/Maxxing style game as well as a roleplaying-emphasis game. I want to try to judge them on their merits, but I have to increase the cost of the feat if it is open for, well, abuse. Thus, while Earth Spell in and of itself is not so powerful, it has extreme potential for abuse, so the cost goes up.

I will try to get more details up shortly; a bit of typing, but many thanks for the responses so far.

C.
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Mushroom Ninja

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 10:47:40 PM »

The Mad Linguist, Bears are Brown, Tonymitsu, Prime32 & Mushroom Ninja
: I haven't actually seen VoP in use; in the right circumstances, it can be abused, of course, but the feedback is appreciated. Would you place it as a 4 or a 5?
Unless you're putting it on an animal companion or possibly a druid, I'd actually put it quite low -- maybe 2.  The problem is that it is likely to do more harm than good to most characters who take it.  If you're giving it to an animal companion or mount or something like that, I'd stick it higher up.


Quote

Mushroom Ninja
: Would you advocate Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic as both 5s?

Personally, I'd swap them, putting DMM at 6 and Persist Spell at 5.

snakeman830

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2010, 11:03:07 PM »
Darkstalker is a must-have feat for stealthy characters just like Natural Spell is a must-have feat for druids.  Easily a 6pt feat because it lets a stealh character be stealthy on tons more foes.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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That explains so much about my life.
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[/spoiler]

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Anklebite

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2010, 11:05:17 PM »
power attack should probably be a 6-pointer too.
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Tonymitsu

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2010, 11:11:14 PM »
Things like Vow of Poverty is the reason feats are hard to judge on a single universal scale.

Consider the line from the DMG on once/day gear, charged items, etc., when running a one-shot dungeon or adventure.

They say to charge five times as much as normal for those items for a one-shot dungeon, and even to make such adjustments to the wealth of an established character coming in.  The reason for this, the author says, is to balance such items against the rest of the character wealth so that once/day items don't dominate your dungeon.  Since you're only here for this one night there's no reason to save them for anything is there?

The relevance here is that Vow of Poverty builds suffer from diminishing returns.  At low levels, they will likely far surpass other characters because the abilities they are granted are far superior to normal equipment available to the level.  Around the mid-levels, they start to level out a bit, becoming about the same as the rest of the party.  By the time they hit levels 12-14 and up, their abilities are vastly inferior to the equipment available to normal characters.
So if you are creating a character for a low-level one-shot game or one that won't go past, say, level 9 or 10, a VoP build could be ideal.


But that's just my 2 coppers...


ninjarabbit

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2010, 11:24:18 PM »
I'll rank some of the metamagic feats:

Empower spell: 5 points
Enlarge spell: 2 points
Extend spell: 3 points
Heighten spell: 3 points
Maximize spell: 4 points
Quicken spell: 6 points
Silent spell: 3 points
Still spell: 3 points
Widen spell: 2 points
Split Ray: 5 points
Persistant spell: 6 points
Twin spell: 5 points
Reach spell: 3 points
Sculpt spell: 4 points
Invisible spell: 4 points
Disguise spell: 2 points
Energy subsitution: 2 points
Repeat spell: 4 points
Sacred spell: 1 point
Subdual subsitution: 1 point

Any sudden metamagic feat: -1 pointfrom the normal feat point cost
Arcane thesis: 5 points

Etarran

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Re: A Tier System for Feats... well, kinda.
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2010, 11:29:09 PM »
Several of the feats you listed are somewhat balanced out by the prerequesite feats - assuming that those are the standard 3-point or the sucky 2-point feats, you end up dedicating enormous build resources to getting the feats very late. Vow of Poverty has already been mentioned, but something like weapon supremacy is even worse - and also no way is +5 to attack and take ten on one attack roll anywhere near the power of, say, undead leadership.

How do you handle feats like otherworldly that need to be taken at first level?

Craven (6pt)
Darkstalker (6pt)
Mindsight (6pt)
Quicken Spell (6pt)
Craft Contingent Spell (6pt)
Versatile Spellcaster (5pt)
Dreadful Wrath on anything with fear effects (5pt seems appropriate as listed)
Jotunbrud on anything with trip, grapple, or other size stuff (5pt)
I agree with Craft contingent, quicken, versatile caster, and dreadful wrath, but I think craven, darkstalker, mindsight, and jotenbrud should all be moved down one point. Craven is excellent damage, but it's just damage. Darkstalker and mindsight are both excellent, but not really on the same level as leadership or natural spell, obviously. Jotenbrud is a tough one, but I think it's probably better to err on the side of throwing melee types slightly undercosted feats.

I suggest moving undead leadership and divine metamagic up to six, and adding draconic cohort. Wild cohort is probably a five, maybe a six.

It is also crucial to make Blessing of Tem Et Nu at least a seven.