Author Topic: Tome of Battle is fun, but...  (Read 8181 times)

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Hijax

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2010, 06:08:35 PM »
I disagree. You threaten everything within, say, 20 ft with a reach weapon and minor tinkering with reach. If we treat reach as a restriction on what you can attack, then that restriction works in the vertical plane, too.
Of course. You misunderstand. I'm assuming his opponent is also flying 1000 feet in the air, within his reach.

ah. stupid me.  :banghead

actually, my misunderstanding is even worse. I thought you were thinking of the opponent flying 1000 feet in the air, and him standing on the ground. no big difference, but it reveals that my reading comprehension is messed up at this hour.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2010, 06:10:45 PM »

And while difficult terrain may stop charges, it doesn't stop 5-foot steps.
Yes it does, actually.
Quote

Damn the things you can miss.... you know, I've been playing a while and we've NEVER restricted 5-foot steps in any way, in no group, except by taking other movement during the round. :banghead

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2010, 06:26:45 PM »

And while difficult terrain may stop charges, it doesn't stop 5-foot steps.
Yes it does, actually.
Quote

Damn the things you can miss.... you know, I've been playing a while and we've NEVER restricted 5-foot steps in any way, in no group, except by taking other movement during the round. :banghead
I hadn't noticed that till I started thinking about whether to take Earth Devotion on a character. After finding that gem, I decided that it was a decent feat. It can stop charges as an immediate action, even if they're targeting an ally, and eventually even works against more than one charger at a time, and also prevent enemies from 5' stepping to get away from you. And it only costs 1 turn/rebuke attempt per extra use. Not bad at all, I think.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2010, 06:30:04 PM »
Sounds nice, true enough.

Anklebite

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2010, 08:54:34 PM »
I like ToB.  It generally set the standard for 3.5 melee.  Nowadays, it seems every thread where ToB is allowed for a physical character it is encouraged.

Let's twist that.  What sorts of physical builds would you recommend that DON'T use Tome of Battle material?  That means no stances, no maneuvers, no Martial Study, no martial adepts, and so on.
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beardfisty seems to be missing a few things in his statblock. namely, kensei weapon enchantment allocation and his actual unarmed damage.
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CuddableKae

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2010, 11:01:39 PM »
Quote
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

My DM read that last clause as preventing Bulwark of Defense from working against flying creatures.  Which was really annoying, but I have to agree that it is RAW.

Solo

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 11:50:14 PM »
beardfisty seems to be missing a few things in his statblock. namely, kensei weapon enchantment allocation and his actual unarmed damage.
Check closer. You have to check the weapons box.

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Tonymitsu

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2010, 11:50:55 PM »
Quote
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

My DM read that last clause as preventing Bulwark of Defense from working against flying creatures.  Which was really annoying, but I have to agree that it is RAW.

Maybe he also doesn't get that the ability has nothing at all to do with the ground?

CuddableKae

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2010, 12:11:39 AM »
Quote
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

My DM read that last clause as preventing Bulwark of Defense from working against flying creatures.  Which was really annoying, but I have to agree that it is RAW.

Maybe he also doesn't get that the ability has nothing at all to do with the ground?

Oh no, he got that.  He just ruled that that last line means it doesn't work.   ...which really is RAW...

Anklebite

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2010, 12:37:32 AM »
beardfisty seems to be missing a few things in his statblock. namely, kensei weapon enchantment allocation and his actual unarmed damage.
Check closer. You have to check the weapons box.

I find your damage to be wanting.  or did you forget to calculate in the sizing property?  cause 3d8+11 seems a bit low.
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2010, 01:11:31 AM »
Quote
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

My DM read that last clause as preventing Bulwark of Defense from working against flying creatures.  Which was really annoying, but I have to agree that it is RAW.

Maybe he also doesn't get that the ability has nothing at all to do with the ground?

Oh no, he got that.  He just ruled that that last line means it doesn't work.   ...which really is RAW...

Awesome.

Buy a Phoenix Cloak to give yourself flight, and tell him your character can now ignore attacks of opportunity from movement based on that same ruling, since the only way a knight's ability could function like he says is if you only threaten the ground, not the space around you.


Seriously, willfully misinterpreting a class ability isn't RAW.  If the ability said "the knight causes creatures to treat terrain around him as difficult" then he'd be right.  The knight doesn't affect terrain, he affects creatures.

Also make sure he's aware of Wizard's general errata policy:

"If page 1 contradicts something on page 3, ignore page 1 and read page 3 instead."

Bauglir

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2010, 01:23:41 AM »
Uh, no, it is quite clear, actually. They treat all squares you threaten as though they were difficult terrain, which they are unhampered by. They ARE affected (because they DO treat it as difficult terrain). They just don't care.

Quote
Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

The Knight could use the boost, but strictly speaking and without any distortion at all, it's obvious how these rules interact.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Tonymitsu

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2010, 01:57:46 AM »
Uh, no, it is quite clear, actually. They treat all squares you threaten as though they were difficult terrain, which they are unhampered by. They ARE affected (because they DO treat it as difficult terrain). They just don't care.

Quote
Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

The Knight could use the boost, but strictly speaking and without any distortion at all, it's obvious how these rules interact.

Yes, because when creating the class the writers were fully aware that combat in D&D only EVER takes place on solid earth, and not, say, while crossing a chasm on a bridge, climbing a cliff-face or a dungeon shaft, on a boat, in the sky above a battlefield (while on your flying mount), or on a Plane of Elemental Air, and therefore saw no reason to word a class ability in such a way, both in flavor and mechanical effect, that it could be easily and simply interpreted to bypass a restriction established in an earlier book.

Cause Wizards has NEVER done such a thing before...

 :rollseyes

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2010, 11:32:22 AM »
I'd guess that the writers are so stupid that they didn't think about combat that doesn't happen on the ground when writing this ability. And yeah, it's probably RAW that it doesn't work on flying creatures. If your DM rules that way, though, he's an asshole. Knight is a weak-assed class and needs all the help it can get to be relevant. I'd suggest you play nothing but clerics or druids in a game where the DM ruled like that, and purposely make them all overpowered as hell, but strictly legal. In fact, I'd suggest either a druid/planar shepherd, or cleric/dweomerkeeper. Then when he starts to complain about those, you can say "Would you rather I play my knight?"
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 11:34:51 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2010, 04:37:40 PM »
My view is that ToB is one of the later books that came out in 3.5's life, so removing it from the discussion is actually stepping backward and less original than using it.

However, in my firm belief that one shouldn't post in a thread without contributing according to its topic, I do have a few things I enjoy:

I played a straight fighter archer whose attack bonus was absurd. The trick with these archers is to focus on precision, not damage. I only did 1d8+7 or something, but I NEVER missed even after taking massive penalties for called shots (There are no official rules for called shots that I know of, my DM let me take -8 for some targets and -12 for very small targets). So I shot out people's eyes. Blindness is a devastating status effect. Concealment wasn't an issue thanks to Woodland Archer, so my weakness was things with regeneration and things with no eyes. Against things with no eyes I just did all my damage and stayed back (My damage was actually fine) and against things with regeneration I used my teleportation arrows to move them away from me and usually many feet into the air. There are other uses for precision than houseruled called shots, and you can find some of them in the archer thread on this same board.

I also enjoy basic hulk characters. If you can find the means to possess disgusting stats, you'll probably do fine. I always remember the joys of enormous strength. Oh sure it doesn't sound that useful, but beating people to death is underrated. If they don't have Freedom of Movement, grapple them and laugh a lot in their ear as you mutilate them. My finest hulk had 35 or so AC, +14-22 initiative, +38 grapple, and something like +32 attack at level 10 (he didn't play beyond that). I'm sure the fine min-maxers of this site can beat him at every number, but that doesn't mean their numbers will be necessary at that level. He was many things (because I've built the concept many times) but it's just focusing on building your basics up. I've done it with fighters and with monks and meldshapers and ToB. It's fun to play the Hulk and to be able to do it all day without running out of spells or power points (Although I've definitely used those. I love the War Mind).

Neither of these require ToB. Sorry I didn't lay out the builds, but the truth is the can be accomplished by many means, are flexible concepts, and are fun to play.

It's worth noting that both concepts can be improved with ToB, and that I hadn't found this site when I made my latest version of either build. The Archer would gain things like the Splitting Enhancement now and the hulk would probably employ stances and maneuvers (I'm thinking the Setting Sun throws would do nicely and Iron Heart Surge would make him even more annoying)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 05:05:07 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Senevri

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2010, 05:25:29 PM »
Mm... Most builds are better with a bit of ToB. Casters, naturally excluded.
Certain single-classed builds don't get much use out of it, Dread Necro 20, if that's your thing, or Factotum 20. Even if Factotum mixes okay with ToB... but, especially a straight FoI Factotum.

The thing is, just a level or two of ToB is good stuff, so it's easy to include in most builds. Many archer builds gain little from it, but teleports, terrain ignoring, SU spiderclimb and skillcheck - saves are good for anyone.

Tight and complicated builds might be unable to fit in ToB, in which cases it won't see use.

Bauglir

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2010, 10:15:34 PM »
I'd guess that the writers are so stupid that they didn't think about combat that doesn't happen on the ground when writing this ability. And yeah, it's probably RAW that it doesn't work on flying creatures. If your DM rules that way, though, he's an asshole. Knight is a weak-assed class and needs all the help it can get to be relevant. I'd suggest you play nothing but clerics or druids in a game where the DM ruled like that, and purposely make them all overpowered as hell, but strictly legal. In fact, I'd suggest either a druid/planar shepherd, or cleric/dweomerkeeper. Then when he starts to complain about those, you can say "Would you rather I play my knight?"

Totally agreed. Knights need the boost, and quite frankly it doesn't fit the flavor at all to restrict it to non-flying creatures (incorporeal, I can see, but I'd make them subject to it if you were wielding a Ghost Touch weapon or something). They fairly clearly just picked a condition that happened to have the effects they wanted, without thinking through all the consequences of reusing it. Still, I wouldn't call it willful misinterpretation of the ability, as it IS firmly rooted in the text. It's still a dick move, though.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Akalsaris

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2010, 03:10:45 AM »
Mm... Most builds are better with a bit of ToB. Casters, naturally excluded.
Certain single-classed builds don't get much use out of it, Dread Necro 20, if that's your thing, or Factotum 20. Even if Factotum mixes okay with ToB... but, especially a straight FoI Factotum.

The thing is, just a level or two of ToB is good stuff, so it's easy to include in most builds. Many archer builds gain little from it, but teleports, terrain ignoring, SU spiderclimb and skillcheck - saves are good for anyone.

Tight and complicated builds might be unable to fit in ToB, in which cases it won't see use.

Yeah, I agree with this.  As we've seen in this thread, there are dozens (hundreds?  thousands?) of fun melee or ranged builds that don't need the ToB to be fun and interesting.  But almost every build could probably get a lot of mileage out of 2 levels of a ToB class at 19th and 20th levels to gain a few 4th and 5th level maneuvers and a stance or 2. 

To contribute a few more builds without ToB:

Wild Elf Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Revenant Blade 5/Dervish 10 - a two-weapon fighting build that uses pounce, whirling rage from UA, and dervish dance with the double scimitar and 2-handed weapon damage for each end.  Power attacking with pounce, leap attack and heedless charge for silly amounts of damage and mobility.


Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tome of Battle is fun, but...
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2010, 04:53:34 PM »
Mm... Most builds are better with a bit of ToB. Casters, naturally excluded.
Certain single-classed builds don't get much use out of it, Dread Necro 20, if that's your thing, or Factotum 20. Even if Factotum mixes okay with ToB... but, especially a straight FoI Factotum.

The thing is, just a level or two of ToB is good stuff, so it's easy to include in most builds. Many archer builds gain little from it, but teleports, terrain ignoring, SU spiderclimb and skillcheck - saves are good for anyone.

Tight and complicated builds might be unable to fit in ToB, in which cases it won't see use.

Most builds are better with a bit of ToB period. Would you sacrifice a caster level to gain the ability to shut down AMFs that you are in with a standard action every other round? I would. What about a teleportation that doesn't cost a spell per day, or spider walk or fly that doesn't cost a spell per day? Some of these can be fetched with invocations, but Tome of Battle offers a lot to a lot of people. It may not seem perfectly optimized but tricks and gimmicks will get you out of a lot if people don't aniticpate them. Even a sneak-attacking caster can make use of Shadow Garrote to make their target flat-footed before they nail them with that Hunter's-Eye_enhanced spell.
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