Author Topic: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?  (Read 12559 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hijax

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
  • Kobolds ate my cookies
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2010, 02:29:09 PM »
here's what is most awesome in that book:

SYNCHRONICITY!
"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
-B. M. Evilwizardington.
blogging at disasters made in china

Garryl

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1240
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2010, 03:46:15 PM »
Meh, Races of Destiny did Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike first, and it's not even a Psionics book.
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

Hijax

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
  • Kobolds ate my cookies
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2010, 05:06:21 PM »
Meh, Races of Destiny did Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike first, and it's not even a Psionics book.

seriously?

dammit, thats one wasted bookPDF download.
"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
-B. M. Evilwizardington.
blogging at disasters made in china

Garryl

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1240
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 07:08:38 PM »
Yup, check out page 170. And while you're at it, is there any chance you could look at the augment for Anticipatory Strike in RoD for me? I can't tell if it's a stupid thing that makes you lose a turn, or if it's a White Raven Tactics on yourself.
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

Hijax

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
  • Kobolds ate my cookies
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 07:31:59 PM »
Yup, check out page 170. And while you're at it, is there any chance you could look at the augment for Anticipatory Strike in RoD for me? I can't tell if it's a stupid thing that makes you lose a turn, or if it's a White Raven Tactics on yourself.

pretty much WRT on yourself.

The augment makes it change your place in initiative order.

"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
-B. M. Evilwizardington.
blogging at disasters made in china

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2010, 09:31:57 PM »
Page 292 of the DMG clearly states that spells are not subject to damage reduction. Complete psionic therefore either unintentionally broke the already established rules (demonstrating its poor editing) or created an even more unfair disparity between magic and psionics (demonstrating its poor game design).
Of course magic should just go through everything, right? right?  :eh
Like it or not, that's the status quo. Psionics are being kneecapped out of a falsely perceived balance issue. And in some ways, yes, this is due to the fact that WotC has a hard time forcing themselves to occasionally hand everyone else nice things.

ProfessorCirno

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Eye'm the strongest!
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2010, 05:38:36 AM »
Page 292 of the DMG clearly states that spells are not subject to damage reduction. Complete psionic therefore either unintentionally broke the already established rules (demonstrating its poor editing) or created an even more unfair disparity between magic and psionics (demonstrating its poor game design).
Of course magic should just go through everything, right? right?  :eh
Like it or not, that's the status quo. Psionics are being kneecapped out of a falsely perceived balance issue. And in some ways, yes, this is due to the fact that WotC has a hard time forcing themselves to occasionally hand everyone else nice things.

The two problems that psionics have is that early editions weren't build that well, and it's named "psionics."

That last one is really rankling.  Nevermind that Vancian is a magic system cribbed directly from a sci-fi series, and involves complex formula and experimentation in order to cast things like "telepathy."  Clearly psionics, the magic sstem where you use your will and mind to force reality to alter, is the science fiction one!

As for balance, psions fall under all of the wrongful imbalance cries that I've seen.  I'll give the three biggest reasons and, to make it a bit fun, I'll be comparing them to a much weaker class who's called overpowered for many of the same reasons, one that will make you "wat" rather hard: the warlock.  Yes.  People believe the warlock is overpowered.

1) It's different, so it must be too powerful!

I've seen someone claim that psionics fans are all horrible munchkins.  Why?  "If you want to play a different ruleset, there has to be some trick in it that I haven't seen."  People, especially those more set in their ways, are terrified of things being different.  Believe it or not, there are people who to this day believe warlocks are too powerful, simply because they don't use Vancian.  It's why wizards and clerics in some places are seen as, wish I were joking, weak - because they're traditional.  I've seen people ban the goddamn Truenamer because they were afraid it might be too powerful.

It's also why people refer to increased books as being an incresed chance for munchkins, and why they'll ban all non-core books in an attempt to help non-casters.  It doesn't matter that Core was scewed right from the start - it's familiar, so clearly it can't be at fault!  No, it's those other, new, different books, they're the ones to blame!

2) It's easier to use, so it must be too powerful!

This is the sorcerer vs wizard argument.  Most people here will readily agree - wizards are better then sorcerers.  But there are indeed people who will disagree.  Why?  Because it's easier to accidentally be an awesome sorcerer then it is a wizard.  Sorcerers are "easier" to use - choose your spells and start mashing them at baddies.  The pros of a wizard look like cons to new players.  Where we see "I can change m spells every day!" they see "I have to change them every day?!"  To very crudely show it:

Wizard - New player power: 4.  Experienced player power: 10
Sorcerer - New player power: 6.  Experienced player power: 8

These numbers are made up on the spot.  Please don't try to look deeply into them.

I think psions hit the same place sorcerers do.  Power points are easier to understand then vancian.  They're also more familiar - pretty much every video game ever uses them, DDO.  A lot of psion fans like myself call the system elegant - it's easy to jump into, and takes a bit of use to fully begin to master it.  But because it's easy to jump into, it's easy to make

Likewise, the warlock isn't exactly a difficult class to understand.  Hey look a baddie.  I shoot it with my magic beam.  Wait now it's a magic fire beam.  This is also incidentally why people keep playing blaster wizards only to whine about psions doing more damage then the wizard.  They have no goddamn clue what they're doing.  Blaster wizards hey that looks easy I'll just fireball everything and - look at that, I'm not really contributing that much.  But it sure was easy to understand!

3) Oh god what are these rule things or! I am so bad at math.

They just didn't care.  Maybe the DM never bothered reading through the rules.  Maybe the whole party has no clue how the CR system works.  Maybe the DM is forgetting the assumption of multiple fights in one day.  Regardless, this leads to some hilarious viewpoints regarding balance.  Take the fights per day problem.  This is what leads to the whinging over novas, especially regarding psions.  The opposite is what caused people to initially think the goddamn warlock would be too powerful.  "It can cast ALL DAY LONG?  Preposterous!"  Of course, when you're assumed to have an average of x battles, casting all day long really doesn't matter that much.  Likewise, if you blow all your load right from the start, your DM will be just as upset as your girlfriend, and you'll find yourself unable to continue playing with either for the rest of the day.

The rule bit needs no real look into.  Glance at any person countering on why psionics isn't overpowered, and at least half their points will be "No, read the goddamn rules, jesus, it doesn't work like that."

Most of these fall under "Eh, whatever."  They just don't care.  This is the worst of the three, because you can't fight it.  They don't care what your responses are, it's still overpowered "because."  They don't care that their view of the rules is factually incorrect.  They don't care that nova-ing is a rather stupid idea, or that being able to cast all day isn't that impressive.  And you can't convince them otherwise, because they don't care.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 08:44:13 PM by ProfessorCirno »
"Can I make it absolutely clear, here, now, that I'm only here because the producers said I had to be. I don't like snow, I hate being cold, I hate outdoor pursuits, I hate the idea that I've got to "push my body to find the limit," I can't stand this stupid clothing that makes this rustling noise when you move all the time, and I hate the zips, and the toggles, and all the pockets, and that and I hate your stupid truck."

"Listen. If we make it, look at it this way: you will be the first person ever to go to the North Pole who didn't want to be there."

Hijax

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
  • Kobolds ate my cookies
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2010, 08:01:11 AM »
And you can't convince them otherwise, because they don't care.

THEN THEY MUST BURN!
"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
-B. M. Evilwizardington.
blogging at disasters made in china

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2010, 08:15:24 AM »
And you can't convince them otherwise, because they don't care.

THEN THEY MUST BURN!

As a fellow Black Mage and instigator of treacherous behavior against asinine asshole DM's, I endorse this statement :)
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Hijax

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
  • Kobolds ate my cookies
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2010, 08:18:43 AM »
And you can't convince them otherwise, because they don't care.

THEN THEY MUST BURN!

As a fellow Black Mage and instigator of treacherous behavior against asinine asshole DM's, I endorse this statement :)

Allow me to alter my statement: THEN THEY MUST BE RIPPED APART BY CHAOS!

persistent twin intesified maw of chaos at CL 165(i think that was what you reached, wasn't it?), IN YA FACE!
"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
-B. M. Evilwizardington.
blogging at disasters made in china

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2010, 08:21:46 AM »
And you can't convince them otherwise, because they don't care.

THEN THEY MUST BURN!

As a fellow Black Mage and instigator of treacherous behavior against asinine asshole DM's, I endorse this statement :)

Allow me to alter my statement: THEN THEY MUST BE RIPPED APART BY CHAOS!

persistent twin intesified maw of chaos at CL 165(i think that was what you reached, wasn't it?), IN YA FACE!

177.  Before feats, gear, and buffs :)
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 04:09:26 PM »
@the psionics system
I've been playing, off and on, in an all-psionics game for several years now.  It's had a couple of issues, a psi-only game has some blind spots that we closed through house rules (namely condition removal), but it's gone pretty well. 

I do have one complaint w/ the psi system, though, which is augmenting.  I like how it makes a low-level power choice relevant at high levels, but it has 2 issues.  The smaller one being that it does make psions less powerful in some regards than their arcane counterparts -- you're spending more power points (more spell slots, effectively) to gain a benefit that they gain innately as arcane spells often scale w/ level w/out increasing the spell slot; you gain more magic missiles w/out having to throw any higher slots at it.  Although augmented psionic powers do tend not to cap out as spells do. 

Second, and more importantly, the augment system is a bit clunky.  The biggest thing is the scaling DCs, I think, which makes it a bit of a pain to calculate.  I can usually manage the damage calculations -- it's straightforward -- but the save DCs have been harder on the fly.  I'd be open to any suggestions as to how to streamline that.  Maybe I should just calculate the DCs for all my powers fully augmented somewhere, since that's how I tend to manifest them anyway.

That's the one big inelegance, at least on a practical level, I've found in the psionics system.  I also don't love the psionic focus set-up for metapsi feats, especially b/c I think psionics makes them more fun to use, but that's maybe an issue for another time. 

Hijax

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
  • Kobolds ate my cookies
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2010, 04:54:05 PM »
And you can't convince them otherwise, because they don't care.

THEN THEY MUST BURN!

As a fellow Black Mage and instigator of treacherous behavior against asinine asshole DM's, I endorse this statement :)

Allow me to alter my statement: THEN THEY MUST BE RIPPED APART BY CHAOS!

persistent twin intesified maw of chaos at CL 165(i think that was what you reached, wasn't it?), IN YA FACE!

177.  Before feats, gear, and buffs :)

Awesome.

so, we have 3186 damage per round.  for 24 hours.
of course, we keep casting new ones on top every round.
"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
-B. M. Evilwizardington.
blogging at disasters made in china

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2010, 05:02:18 PM »
@the psionics system
I've been playing, off and on, in an all-psionics game for several years now.  It's had a couple of issues, a psi-only game has some blind spots that we closed through house rules (namely condition removal), but it's gone pretty well. 

I do have one complaint w/ the psi system, though, which is augmenting.  I like how it makes a low-level power choice relevant at high levels, but it has 2 issues.  The smaller one being that it does make psions less powerful in some regards than their arcane counterparts -- you're spending more power points (more spell slots, effectively) to gain a benefit that they gain innately as arcane spells often scale w/ level w/out increasing the spell slot; you gain more magic missiles w/out having to throw any higher slots at it.  Although augmented psionic powers do tend not to cap out as spells do. 

Second, and more importantly, the augment system is a bit clunky.  The biggest thing is the scaling DCs, I think, which makes it a bit of a pain to calculate.  I can usually manage the damage calculations -- it's straightforward -- but the save DCs have been harder on the fly.  I'd be open to any suggestions as to how to streamline that.  Maybe I should just calculate the DCs for all my powers fully augmented somewhere, since that's how I tend to manifest them anyway.

That's the one big inelegance, at least on a practical level, I've found in the psionics system.  I also don't love the psionic focus set-up for metapsi feats, especially b/c I think psionics makes them more fun to use, but that's maybe an issue for another time. 

DCs almost always work out to "For every 2 additional power points you spend on this power in any way, including other augments, the DC increases by 1."
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2010, 06:09:49 PM »
iirc the Dreamscarred guys had Anticipatory Strike doing Turn Jacking.
But that was just the original version.
The CPsi version was nerfed to eliminate the Turn Jacking effect.
I didn't have access the RoDestiny so I didn't participate.
The CPsi version is good enough, most of the time; but ain't in the league of the original, or this thread.

**

Technically the DivineMind is itself, a nerf of the original Ardent.
The Ardent was gonna be what the Ardent and DivineMind became separately.
I can understand that a Full Caster with d10, would create lots of Psi-Is-Borkt screaming.
And then the Psi guys would've had to point out the 2/3rds # of powers, and Mantles not anywhere near as good as Domains
... and this and that and s'more.
And it still wouldn't'a mattered to the Psi-Is-Borkt crowd.
(snore)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 06:13:35 PM by awaken DM golem »

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2010, 11:56:13 PM »
@the psionics system
I've been playing, off and on, in an all-psionics game for several years now.  It's had a couple of issues, a psi-only game has some blind spots that we closed through house rules (namely condition removal), but it's gone pretty well. 

I do have one complaint w/ the psi system, though, which is augmenting.  I like how it makes a low-level power choice relevant at high levels, but it has 2 issues.  The smaller one being that it does make psions less powerful in some regards than their arcane counterparts -- you're spending more power points (more spell slots, effectively) to gain a benefit that they gain innately as arcane spells often scale w/ level w/out increasing the spell slot; you gain more magic missiles w/out having to throw any higher slots at it.  Although augmented psionic powers do tend not to cap out as spells do. 

Second, and more importantly, the augment system is a bit clunky.  The biggest thing is the scaling DCs, I think, which makes it a bit of a pain to calculate.  I can usually manage the damage calculations -- it's straightforward -- but the save DCs have been harder on the fly.  I'd be open to any suggestions as to how to streamline that.  Maybe I should just calculate the DCs for all my powers fully augmented somewhere, since that's how I tend to manifest them anyway.

That's the one big inelegance, at least on a practical level, I've found in the psionics system.  I also don't love the psionic focus set-up for metapsi feats, especially b/c I think psionics makes them more fun to use, but that's maybe an issue for another time. 

DCs almost always work out to "For every 2 additional power points you spend on this power in any way, including other augments, the DC increases by 1."
That's generally true, especially w/ CPsi, so I should eventually internalize it.

Where did you get the bolded portion, though? 

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2010, 12:22:11 AM »
That's generally true, especially w/ CPsi, so I should eventually internalize it.

Where did you get the bolded portion, though? 
That's the way most powers work.  For every 2 points you spend on augmentations, the save DC automatically improves by 1.  Not all powers work this way, but most do.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2010, 11:30:30 AM »
Meh, Races of Destiny did Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike first, and it's not even a Psionics book.
Really? All this time and I though Complete Psionic had game breaking uber powers in it to balance out it's flaws (srsly, celerity was as least printed as an 8th level spell and has stunning).
Guess not.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: How did Complete Psionic "nerf" things?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2010, 04:20:11 PM »
Professor Cirno : "Yes.  People believe the warlock is overpowered."

Heh
I like taking the Wilder (without the Mind's Eye updates)
and getting the most expansive type of Bestow Power recharge set-up
and then making the Wilder try to do all the stuff a Warlock can do,
and fall short by 10 powers to 18 warlock thingies
and not able to keep going in the middle of the fight
and needing most of the feat slots to be used to undo the weaknesses of the class.

And then point out that a Psion can do most of it too
and not need the feat slot drain
and have 35+ goodies compared to the Warlock.

 :banghead
And then they'll respond just as you say.