Author Topic: Is it possible to optimize a shadowcaster into tier (2or3?) without breaking it?  (Read 6842 times)

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Paradox

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Now, I'm not saying that breaking it is so easy that we have to take care not to, nor that it is even possible.  I personally like the mechanics (though I know how much they suck).  Also, I understand that this class caries the implication that it should be used with fixes, which I agree with and that all people should use it with (hereWizard's Expanded Class article, which just has stuff about the FR's shadow weave feats.  

Things to focus on for optimization:
PRC's [Can it work with ScM?]
Metashadow Feats
Other Feats
Race
The shadowcaster's features, so no candle of invocation or things that are independent of the class's mechanics.
Whether or not the features of the shadowcaster should be focused on or whether it's best place is to complement another's role, such as gish or whatever.


I'm simply at a loss on how to compete with a Tier 2 or even 3 with this.  I'd like to see this class able to fill the role a party's sole magic user.

Tangent
[spoiler]
I ran a beguiler with the shadow casting fixes replacing the beguiler casting, and it was pretty fun, which is why I don't think this is a worthless mechanic.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 09:30:51 AM by Paradox »

Hijax

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interesting clause:
Quote
When you are capable of casting only apprentice mysteries, you cast them as though they were arcane spells

this might mean we can use this to qualify for prestige classes, although we couldn't use the advancement from PrCs to advance shadowcasting.

EDIT: oh damn, just saw the clause about PrCs and qualifying. we explicitly can only use our mysteries for unspecified casting prereqs
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 03:31:43 PM by Hijax »
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Paradox

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interesting clause:
Quote
When you are capable of casting only apprentice mysteries, you cast them as though they were arcane spells

this might mean we can use this to qualify for prestige classes, although we couldn't use the advancement from PrCs to advance shadowcasting.

EDIT: oh damn, just saw the clause about PrCs and qualifying. we explicitly can only use our mysteries for unspecified casting prereqs

FFFUUUUUUUUUU

Paradox

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gorfnad

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See if your DM will allow any of the nice shadowcaster stuff from here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519

Shadowcaster 3/ Wizard 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4
or
Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice) / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6
Both will net you double 9s and probably bump you up to tier 2.

Paradox

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While I do appreciate the thought, those are homebrews, while I posted a fix from the author himself. I consider the author's fixes at least semi-official, even if they are not. (Though I admire that particular homebrew)

Otherwise, I do not think Mystic Theurge advances shadowcrafting.  It is arcane.  Otherwise that would be a very nice build.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 08:32:30 PM by Paradox »

kurashu

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See if your DM will allow any of the nice shadowcaster stuff from here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519

Shadowcaster 3/ Wizard 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4
or
Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice) / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6
Both will net you double 9s and probably bump you up to tier 2.

Qualifying for MT with Shadowcaster only advances mysteries and divine spells, not mysteries and arcane spells.

Fluffles

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While I do appreciate the thought, those are homebrews, while I posted a fix from the author himself. I consider the author's fixes at least semi-official, even if they are not. (Though I admire that particular homebrew)

Otherwise, I do not think Mystic Theurge advances shadowcrafting.  It is arcane.  Otherwise that would be a very nice build.

ToM specifically says MT advances Shadow Magic.

gorfnad

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See if your DM will allow any of the nice shadowcaster stuff from here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519

Shadowcaster 3/ Wizard 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4
or
Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice) / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6
Both will net you double 9s and probably bump you up to tier 2.

Qualifying for MT with Shadowcaster only advances mysteries and divine spells, not mysteries and arcane spells.

Not according to noted Exception for Mystic Theurge on  page 117 of Tome of Magic. It can qualify for either side, arcane or divine, of the Mystic Theurge casting.

Quote
Exception: Shadowcasters can qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class (DMG 192). In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd level spells. They must meet all other requirements normally.
It just says 2nd level spells. It does not specify arcane or divine.

The text in the book following this only states that shadowcaster/clerics entering mystic theurge have to worship a god that grants the any of the following domains Knowledge, Magic, Darkness, or Illusion. This is where people get caught up on the divine/shadowcaster only mystic theurge.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 09:01:45 PM by gorfnad »

Paradox

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Woops, my bad. In that we do indeed have a powerful tier 2 character.  Thank you gorfnad.

gorfnad

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Here's two disturbing builds.
Human Rogue 1/ Shadowcaster 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Shadowcaster 5
Just requires the feats Education, Iron Will, and Spell Focus: Evil

Human Shadowcaster 6/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Shadowcaster 4
Requires the feats Education, Apprentice: Criminal, Iron Will, and Spell Focus: Evil
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 09:24:10 PM by gorfnad »

Paradox

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How would you optimize the feats gained from completing paths?

gorfnad

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Still Mystery is decent if you're planning to wear armor or if you get grappled a lot.
Reach Mystery is great for the Touch of Twilight mysteries.
Quicken Mystery is awesome.
Any metamagic feat (Quicken, Empower, Heighten) would make sense if you're going with the wiz/noctumancer type build.

kurashu

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Qualifying for MT with Shadowcaster only advances mysteries and divine spells, not mysteries and arcane spells.

Not according to noted Exception for Mystic Theurge on  page 117 of Tome of Magic. It can qualify for either side, arcane or divine, of the Mystic Theurge casting.

Quote
Exception: Shadowcasters can qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class (DMG 192). In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd level spells. They must meet all other requirements normally.
It just says 2nd level spells. It does not specify arcane or divine.

The text in the book following this only states that shadowcaster/clerics entering mystic theurge have to worship a god that grants the any of the following domains Knowledge, Magic, Darkness, or Illusion. This is where people get caught up on the divine/shadowcaster only mystic theurge.


You appear to be right. That is certainly where the misconception came for me. Thank you for clearing that up.

Hijax

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noctumancer is at least a half-decent class. well, you lose arcane spellcasting, which is bad, but we probably wanted to focus on shadowcasting anyway.

what about something like this:

shadowcaster 4/Bard 1/Chameleon 2/Sublime Chord 1/Noctumancer 10/shadowcaster +3

use the chameleon feat on versatile spellcaster, and make sure to boost you int.

17th level shadowcasting

2nd level bard spellcasting

10th level sublime chord spellcasting.
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Surreal

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You can't take Sublime Chord until ecl 11.
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Hijax

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You can't take Sublime Chord until ecl 11.

well, crap.

shadowcaster 7/bard 1/chameleon 2/Sublime Chord 1/Noctumancer 9.
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Mushroom

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Any way for Shadowcaster to qualify for SCM? I really haven't looked ta the mysteries in awhile and I think it would be thematically awesome

Rebel7284

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Any way for Shadowcaster to qualify for SCM? I really haven't looked ta the mysteries in awhile and I think it would be thematically awesome

DMM[Heighten] Cleric 3 Qualifies for ScM. 
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lans

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I don't think sublime chord or ur-priest builds count as making a class tier 2 or 3. 
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