Author Topic: Help with my Animal Lord  (Read 5777 times)

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wotmaniac

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Help with my Animal Lord
« on: March 10, 2010, 09:13:08 PM »
Oh, ye Masters of Optimization, I need your help.  'Tis a simple thing to optimize when there are no restrictions -- 'tis the mark of a true artist, however, when one can optimize inside a virtual pressure-cooker of build constraints.
(oh, btw -- this got to be much longer than I had planned)

I'm currently looking to potentially get rid of my current character (rogue/warlock), and bring in another.  I absolutely LOVE the flavor of the Animal Lord, and think that there is the potential for a lot of fun.  I've looked through all of my options, and have decided on:
Human Ranger 6/Animal Lord 10/Beastmaster X (in that order) (btw -- each element of this is necessarily fixed for a reason)

The concept is a jungle-dwelling melee combatant, with skills focused towards filling a scouting role (which also double as ambushing skills) -- in other words: "KING OF THE JUNGLE".  
My typical play style is kind of a "man of action" (meanwhile, the rest of the group likes to "play it safe", and severely over-plan); with my philosophical approach to character building is more of a "plan for the worst-case scenario" type thing (e.g., can I still fill my role in an AMF; what if I lose all my stuff (similar to "what if the DM is a total dick about treasure"); what if my character is all alone; etc).

Important Notes:
[spoiler]
The setting-specific stuff is too convoluted to detail here -- I've just decided to simplify my life by just having him be one of the LIP's living in the jungle of the primitive tropical island that the party is helping to colonize (think New Guinea).

The character will most likely start at 4th level; and the rest of the group consists of:
Cleric (worships some air god)
Wizard Specialist (I think Evoker, but I'm not sure ; also has a level of rogue and "able learner")
Fighter (doing some generalist thing -- he actually wants the "golf-bag o' weapons" ???)
Me.
I wish I knew more about them, but the players of the cleric and wizard are pretty closed-mouth about their characters (this kinda baffles me, and is actually kinda annoying)

The DM is very anti-CO; and the rest of the group doesn't much concern themselves with such. (typical comfort level for the group is at about a Tier 3-5 game)

books allowed = anything in print (as long as you can justify it, story-wise, to the satisfaction to the DM) -- stuff that is considered "broken" will be rejected outright (of course, this DM's ideas of "broken" can be a bit odd, swinging wildly in both directions).
Other rules notes:
- can only advance 1 PrC at a time (and must finish one before moving on to a second)
- casters experience random "wild surges", no matter what (there are certain ways around this, but the minutia is too much to detail)
- story/background explanation for everything (don't worry too much about this, as I can handle that part -- just try to stay in theme)
[/spoiler]

Okay -- on to my current considerations:

PrC options:
[spoiler]
Apelord:
Pros:
- Rend -- this basically doubles my damage potential for my natural attacks.
- am allowed to use "improved toughness" in place of "toughness" for the prereq -- I like the feat, so no real "feat tax" here
- eventual STR bonus for what is gonna amount to a STR-based character
Cons:
- sub optimal animal companion (though there can be some situational benefits -- human-like hands shouldn't be under-rated)
- I can see some "logic" arguments occurring over the AC -- but I'll just have to hash those out before this character comes in to play
- despite what I previously said about a lack of "feat tax" earlier, this still leaves me with one less feat to put elsewhere

Catlord
Pros:
- Pounce
- my favorite option for AC
- DEX bonus is nothing to scoff at
Cons:
- serious "feat tax" -- "weapon finesse" will basically be worthless to me, as I need focus on STR to milk-out as much damage-per-hit as possible

I know that there are better mechanical options to go with; but I don't have any interest in them thematically.
[/spoiler]

Variant considerations:
[spoiler]
Champion of the WildCC -- Otherwise, I'll be getting a whopping 2 1st-lvl spells per day (though, if I keep the spells, I'll be able to much more easily able to use a "cure stick" when I need to).  This becomes much more attractive if I can convince the DM to add "natural bond" the list of available bonus feats; also not a bad option to overcome the Catlord's "feat tax".

Beast-Wrestling combat style -- "imp grapple" really fits the theme.  downside = IUS eventually becomes largely irrelevant.

Strong-arm combat style -- flanking makes Power Attack better ; but I'm really under-whelmed with Imp.Sunder

Wild Shape -- not sure how useful this would be since I'll be dropping-out at 6th level (if nothing else, this at least gives me 2 extra uses of Wild Aspect per day).  While this will make me feat-starved, I don't really see this character being so feat-dependent that he can't make due without them.
  I had taken a second to think about then switching that out for the shapeshifter variant, but I'm not too keen on losing my AC (an not to sure how that would interact with my Wild Aspect)
[/spoiler]

Feats:
[spoiler]
definite:
- imp. toughness -or- wpn finesse (depending on the AC/PrC focus)
- quick reconnoiter (with most of our adventuring consisting of sneaking through the jungle, I'm sure that this will be quite useful)
- natural bond
- rapidstrike (but only if I can actually get my DM to houserule and expansion of the racial prereqs)

for consideration:
- coordinated strike
- brutal throw (after all, I will probably be STR-based, and most likely be carrying a spear)
- adaptable flanker
- vexing flanker
- the "combat focus" chain
- extra wild shape (DM has approved "wild aspect" as the prereq) -- this would only be taken en lieu of the wild shape variant
- darkstalker (though, this will be heavily dependent upon the direction of the campaign)

[/spoiler]

Animal Companion:
[spoiler]
with my PrC focus and my AC being inextricably linked, I'm not sure which is the "dog" and which is the "tail" (or, "cart/horse", if you prefer that analogy).

Felines are, by far, my favorite AC's.  Pounce, imp. grab, rake, all-round solid offense -- what more could you want (besides stronger defenses), right?  But by doing this, my personal offense takes a nose-dive -- relegating me to being support for my AC, not the other way around.

While apes are sub-optimal, this allows me a stronger offensive option for my PrC focus.  I have just one question about this one:  why, from everything I have read, is the ape considered a superior AC to the dire ape?  Is it really all because of the extra HD -- because that's the only thing that I can come up with.  I would rebut this by saying that "rend" is much better than 1 whole HD -- what am I missing here?.
[/spoiler]

Other potential follow-on PrC options (other than beastmaster)
[spoiler]
The only thing that I am interested in about Beastmaster is pimping-out my AC; but I started to think that may there were some other viable options (as I am playing a human with an animal follower -- not the other way around .... this time  ;))
the DM has ruled that both of the following PrCs are made available by the AL's "wild aspect" ability:

Warshaper
Pros:
- AWESOME boosts to combat effectiveness -- don't know what else there is to be said on this

Cons:
- no advancement in anything else
- average HD
- average BAB

Nature's Warrior
While not necessarily as powerful as Warshaper, it still has some pretty useful stuff.
I've narrowed the options for nature's armament down to:
- armor of the crocodile -- +1/class level natural AC improvement (unnamed)
- claws of the grizzly -- +3 damage/attack
- earth's resilience -- DR 3/-
not necessarily in that order (will take whatever would be most useful/needed at the time)

Pros:
- extra caster levels (always useful)
- stacks for wild shape
- solid additions to combat effectiveness
- good HD
- full BAB

Cons:
- abilities are much weaker than Warshaper (I'm unsure that even the 2 extra caster levels can make up for it?)

Both classes have crap for skill points and under-whelming skill sets.
[/spoiler]

Also, if I decided to keep my spells, what do I do with only 2 1th-lvl slots per day?  the only thing that really excites me is entangle.  Another upside of keeping my spells is the ability to use a cure-stick without a UMD check.

well, that's what I've got (and with so many options to filter through, I feel like I'm actually inside a game of Infernal Contraption).  What do you guys recommend?

Thanks a bunch  :)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 01:02:07 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Glutton

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 10:30:48 PM »
 Master of the jungle and you left out the feat Brachiation from complete adventurer? Shame shame.

 I've made a similar character with riding feats that had a Smilidon as a ac/mount. Worked pretty decently but you are correct, your AC becomes the star and youre just some guy with a  spear.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 10:37:22 PM by Glutton »

snakeman830

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 11:29:48 PM »
Master of the jungle and you left out the feat Brachiation from complete adventurer? Shame shame.
I swear, this is the one campaign where that feat would be useful, and it sounds like it fits right in with your character concept.  Of course, flavor-wise this would push me toward Ape-lord.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
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[/spoiler]

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Anklebite

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2010, 02:09:44 AM »
Master of the jungle and you left out the feat Brachiation from complete adventurer? Shame shame.
I swear, this is the one campaign where that feat would be useful, and it sounds like it fits right in with your character concept.  Of course, flavor-wise this would push me toward Ape-lord.
apes have a climb speed anyways, right?

sounds like you should go apelord. weapon finesse does nothing for you, it boosts your damage, your pet is more mobile, ect ect.

the lord of the jungle must be an apelord, it seems.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 02:19:32 AM »
What do you think about possibly incorporating vow of poverty into your character? You could ask your gm to re-flavor it from lawfully good to another alignment (maybe have it reflect an emphasis on inner-strength). 

wotmaniac

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 03:31:23 AM »
Master of the jungle and you left out the feat Brachiation from complete adventurer? Shame shame.
I swear, this is the one campaign where that feat would be useful, and it sounds like it fits right in with your character concept.  Of course, flavor-wise this would push me toward Ape-lord.
oh, y'all must have missed something -- apelord actually gets brachiation as his second totem (as opposed to the catlord's "lightning reflexes")  :p   :D   good call, though.

What do you think about possibly incorporating vow of poverty into your character? You could ask your gm to re-flavor it from lawfully good to another alignment (maybe have it reflect an emphasis on inner-strength). 
I usually dismiss this one, but you may be on to something here (though, I'm not sure if this will fall in to the "broken" category) -- I'll give it a shot.


thanks.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

wotmaniac

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 12:59:37 PM »
OP UPDATE:
added section discussing potential follow-ups to Animal Lord (I'm starting to second guess Beastmaster).

All honest critique is welcome.  Advice is strongly desired. (though, I think that I have finally decided on Apelord)
 
Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 01:04:50 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 01:09:01 PM »
Not sure if this is too far from the original concept, but have you considered Shifter -> Weretouched Master? Nevermind, there is no Ape.

Primeval from Frostburn? Massive Strength bonuses, Dire Ape is one of the examples given... I think that could be a good fit.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 01:31:59 PM by bearsarebrown »

wotmaniac

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 01:28:04 PM »
Not sure if this is too far from the original concept, but have you considered Shifter -> Weretouched Master?
if only ....
unfortunately, I'm only allowed PHB races (minus elves)

'preciate it, though  :)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Beltendu

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 01:29:53 PM »
This might not fit with your preferred flavor, and I don't know if it would be worth it mechanically since I'm not near my books, but have you looked at the Hadozee (I think that's spelled right) race from .. Stormwrack?  The aquatic themed splat book.  If you're heading towards the ape flavor, then it might be worth it.

wotmaniac

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 01:53:40 PM »
This might not fit with your preferred flavor, and I don't know if it would be worth it mechanically since I'm not near my books, but have you looked at the Hadozee (I think that's spelled right) race from .. Stormwrack?  The aquatic themed splat book.  If you're heading towards the ape flavor, then it might be worth it.
dude -- I love it!  I didn't even bother to crack that book open (in fact, I've only briefly scanned it for feats and PrCs -- and even that was a while back).
I'll have to see what my DM has to say about it.

I also like the darfellan, but am a little put off by the whole webbed-feet thing (in a different game, maybe).

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Hijax

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »
This might not fit with your preferred flavor, and I don't know if it would be worth it mechanically since I'm not near my books, but have you looked at the Hadozee (I think that's spelled right) race from .. Stormwrack?  The aquatic themed splat book.  If you're heading towards the ape flavor, then it might be worth it.

this race is made of win. haven't analyzed the mechanics, but flavor-wise, they are.
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Anklebite

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 02:01:14 PM »
This might not fit with your preferred flavor, and I don't know if it would be worth it mechanically since I'm not near my books, but have you looked at the Hadozee (I think that's spelled right) race from .. Stormwrack?  The aquatic themed splat book.  If you're heading towards the ape flavor, then it might be worth it.

this race is made of win. haven't analyzed the mechanics, but flavor-wise, they are.
a flying squirrel-gorilla hybrid?  :love
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Hijax

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 02:14:24 PM »
This might not fit with your preferred flavor, and I don't know if it would be worth it mechanically since I'm not near my books, but have you looked at the Hadozee (I think that's spelled right) race from .. Stormwrack?  The aquatic themed splat book.  If you're heading towards the ape flavor, then it might be worth it.

this race is made of win. haven't analyzed the mechanics, but flavor-wise, they are.
a flying squirrel-gorilla hybrid?  :love

that's it, i'm making a dread pirate hadozee. Fuck you sanity.
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ragnarokschosen

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 04:12:17 PM »
I have to also recomend primeval from frostburn if thats allowed.

Also are you allowed to multiclass base classes cuz i would pick up a level of barbarian for pounce regardless of what animal you pick.


wotmaniac

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2010, 05:35:16 PM »
I have to also recomend primeval from frostburn if thats allowed.

Also are you allowed to multiclass base classes cuz i would pick up a level of barbarian for pounce regardless of what animal you pick.


I have heavily considered both of those options -- here's where they broke-down:
1) DM banned Frostburn outright, being that we're in a jungle and all (the debate did not end well)
2) DM would see this as "munchkin-izing", and thus punish me severely (not necessarily the multi-classing, per sa ; but the whole barbarian dip for the pounce.  there's a pounce-barbarian in the game that I'm running, and he doesn't approve but accepts it only because it's my game).

I've learned the hard way that the simpler I keep it, the better it is for me (and now that I have accepted this, it is much easier to just go with it).

Thanks for the commendable effort.




BTW, at to the VoP response from earlier:  got nix -- and gave 2 reasons for it:
1) "beyond broken" (his words)
2) "well, your people are already impoverished, why do you need to take some vow to stay that way?" (I kinda had to give him that one)
However, I'm gonna try to talk him into a nerfed, reflavored version that gets rid of the bonus feats and lets the party get my share of the treasure (trust me, I'll be better off than with the table-scraps he'll be giving out).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 05:39:02 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

ragnarokschosen

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2010, 05:57:21 PM »
fair enough about the multiclass thing..

I would try and justify barbarian as showing your from, a primitive culture. mabye take 2 levels in it not so much dipping then.

i would see if you could get a reflavored bear warrior to ape warrior.

wotmaniac

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2010, 06:34:11 PM »
fair enough about the multiclass thing..

I would try and justify barbarian as showing your from, a primitive culture. mabye take 2 levels in it not so much dipping then.

i would see if you could get a reflavored bear warrior to ape warrior.
:plot hmm, this is really interesting -  I'd never have thought of this -- it has some real potential. (though, to be honest, it'll have to be tomorrow or something -- I've gotta get some sleep for work tonight).

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2010, 09:32:46 PM »
Hadozee are from Stormwrack and this is a JUNGLE game... But they'd be allowed because they have nothing to do with the water. Much like Primevals have nothing to do with Frostfell. Whatever, if the DM is being dumb you just have to work with it I guess.

and just to point out, redoing Bear Warrior into Ape Warrior is Primeval. Except you don't have to rage to shift.

Glutton

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Re: Help with my Animal Lord
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2010, 10:33:28 PM »
See if he likes Forsaker from the old 3rd ed masters of the wild splatbook. My DM says many of the same things I've read yours say and he loves this class for some reason =/