The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[jseah]

It is not accepted by RAW.  You cannot ignore your own spell effects. 

Mindblank makes you immune to mindaffecting.  Mindblank on the bard prevents him from being affected by his own inspiration. 

Similarly, you cannot ignore hitting yourself from detonating a fireball too close. 

[PhaedrusXY]

Umm.... yeah. You definitely can't just ignore your own spell effects (unless you're playing NWN in easy mode ).

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Hear Ye, Hear Ye. All who post offtopic things (not homebrew abilities useful to an antimage class) or discussions about them will be mocked in amusing ways.

I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!

It okay.... You're interpretation is one logical possibility.... have a prosac

That's sort of what this thread feels like to me.

I am trying to think of something to explain why after several pages and iterations from the OP, you don't understand the purpose of the thread. I can tell because your example didn't fit at all. For analogy, lets say you could give the hulk any specific power you wanted. We will call this creativity 'homebrew' for his warhulk 'class.' There that feels more in line with the thread. Can you still think of nothing useless to us?

the above two posts are also unnecessary because Azrael already mentioned that raw you can't ignore BLAH BLAH BLAH

More on-topic stuff. I don't really care about that interpretation of the rules. I'll note that I think it is the majority one among normal DnD players, however.

[Anklebite]

Hear Ye, Hear Ye. All who post offtopic things (not homebrew abilities useful to an antimage class) or discussions about them will be mocked in amusing ways.

I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!

It okay.... You're interpretation is one logical possibility.... have a prosac

That's sort of what this thread feels like to me.

I am trying to think of something to explain why after several pages and iterations from the OP, you don't understand the purpose of the thread. I can tell because your example didn't fit at all. For analogy, lets say you could give the hulk any specific power you wanted. We will call this creativity 'homebrew' for his warhulk 'class.' There that feels more in line with the thread. Can you still think of nothing useless to us?

the above two posts are also unnecessary because Azrael already mentioned that raw you can't ignore BLAH BLAH BLAH

More on-topic stuff. I don't really care about that interpretation of the rules. I'll note that I think it is the majority one among normal DnD players, however.

RAW: the wizard always wins. now, can we PLEASE get back to actually discussing charOp?

you want to beat the TO wizard? you are going to need even more TO characters. it is, generally, not worth the effort; after all, the wizard can have one of whatever it is you make on his side too.

[Hijax]

How 'Bout this for sum hulk-style homebrew feats:

Limitless Rage[general]:
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature
Effect: whenever you are the target of any effect(including attacks) that would cause damage to you, kill you, or otherwise directly harm you, you enter a rage. if you are already raging, you effectively rage again, doubling the effects of the rage. There is no limit to the total amount of rages you can have stacked using this feat. All the rages' durations are renewed when you enter a new one. This effect takes place whether or not you succeed on your saving throw.

Numb Anger[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: while raging, the amount of negative hit point you need to die is increased by 10 for each rage you have going. for example, if you are raging 4 times, you die at -50.

Voluntary Berserk[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
effect: you can use up normal uses of rage per day to enter a stacked rage as per limited anger. You do not need to take damage to enter stacked rages. For example, a barbarian with this feat could use up two of his rages/day to enter a double rage, as per Limitless rage.

Proportional Provocation[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: You enter an extra rage for each 20 points of damage you would take, instead of just one as per Limitless Anger. If it is a death effect, treat it as dealing as much damage as you have maximum hitpoints.

[jseah]

General stuff:
Taking away genesis-lock would a good start. 
Eg.  Forge Planar Link/Breach
- Create some kind of stationary item (destroyed by moving) that makes a permanent gate to a target plane

Extra Actions

Anti-mage stuff:
IHS at will is another good one. 
- with the caveat that he can do it even if standard actions are not possible. 

Let the IHS apply to crazy stuff
- eg. AMF, windwall (stand in it)

Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.

[juton]

I think investigating home brew is swell, but not everyone will be allowed to use it. I think if anyone wants to seriously consider beating the TO Wizard they should open themselves up to ALL, not just Fighters. I think a fully optimized Wizard would be difficult of even a DweomerCheater of Mystra or a Planar Sheppard to take out. Hell, even writing up the proof of how Pun-Pun would do it would take some work.

I want to play in a setting where a dude with a sword can stand up to even the most cunning magician. 3.5 isn't that off the bat, but maybe if we can figure out several strategies for more powerful characters we can adapt one to our friend the Fighter.

[dark_samuari]

Perhaps venturing into the oh-so-weird land of psionics may help us here? I think possibly attacking from a wholly distinct and different style could offer us a better chance.

Also, to PlzBreakMyCampaign I'll repost for sincerity's sake:

Dungeons and Dragons, serious business...

[PhaedrusXY]

Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.

This is an interesting idea. The Tome fighter's foil ability lets him disrupt anything as an immediate action, though. Including supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary ones. And he gets multiple immediate actions per round (I think 2 or 3 in the end). If you dip into the Legendary Commander prestige class, also from Races of War, he basically gets another immediate action per round.

So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.

[Anklebite]

Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.

This is an interesting idea. The Tome fighter's foil ability lets him disrupt anything as an immediate action, though. Including supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary ones. And he gets multiple immediate actions per round (I think 2 or 3 in the end). If you dip into the Legendary Commander prestige class, also from Races of War, he basically gets another immediate action per round.

So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.

tome fighter is a bit overpowered.  I personally find it to be just plain silly.

[dark_samuari]

Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.

This is an interesting idea. The Tome fighter's foil ability lets him disrupt anything as an immediate action, though. Including supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary ones. And he gets multiple immediate actions per round (I think 2 or 3 in the end). If you dip into the Legendary Commander prestige class, also from Races of War, he basically gets another immediate action per round.

So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.

tome fighter is a bit overpowered.  I personally find it to be just plain silly.

As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.

[PhaedrusXY]

tome fighter is a bit overpowered.  I personally find it to be just plain silly.

Compared to what? A guy sitting in his own genesis demiplane sending out similacrums of elder titans to kill his enemies?  

Foil has a range limit of 30 feet (or 60 at the upper levels), and requires that he hit you with a ranged touch attack. A well-built mage will still smoke a well-built tome fighter with no problems. The tome fighter isn't useless at the upper levels, though, and if he actually gets the drop on the mage, he might just take him out. Sounds pretty balanced to me...

As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.

And the problem with that is? You want a wholesale fix to D&D's problems, especially with casters outclassing everyone else? Well, it so happens that two really smart dudes (an MD and a lawyer) already made one, and you can download it as a pdf even.

[Anklebite]

As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.

And the problem with that is? You want a wholesale fix to D&D's problems, especially with casters outclassing everyone else? Well, it so happens that two really smart dudes (an MD and a lawyer) already made one, and you can download it as a pdf even.

3.5 doesn't need fixing, it needs a DM with a brain.  playing tome just means that everyone plays physical DPS and casters don't have any fun whatsoever.  the combat feats are far too powerful, and fighters get far too many of them.  a class should never be that damn powerful right out of the box.

DM: "so, guys, lets play a tome campain!"
players: "sure!"
DM: "what you guys gonna play?"
players, all at once "fighter20!"

[PhaedrusXY]

As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.

And the problem with that is? You want a wholesale fix to D&D's problems, especially with casters outclassing everyone else? Well, it so happens that two really smart dudes (an MD and a lawyer) already made one, and you can download it as a pdf even.

3.5 doesn't need fixing, it needs a DM with a brain.  playing tome just means that everyone plays physical DPS and casters don't have any fun whatsoever.  the combat feats are far too powerful, and fighters get far too many of them.  a class should never be that damn powerful right out of the box.

DM: "so, guys, lets play a tome campain!"
players: "sure!"
DM: "what you guys gonna play?"
players, all at once "fighter20!"

This is just BS. I'm running one Tome game and about to start playing in another one. You know how many people are going fighter 20? None. (Although I admit that I am using a different version of fighter, but it does include the option to get the Foil ability. It just gets it a bit later, and doesn't get access to Combat bonus feats till 12th+ level.)

I can see why you might tone down the Tome Fighter a bit, but optimized casters are still more powerful. Even the Tome Fighter doesn't beat CodZilla, or an Incantatrix.

[dark_samuari]

PhaedrusXY, I think you may have unrealistic expectations of how dungeons and dragons is played. I have never seen a mage even remotely as powerful as the one presented in this thread. And to be fair the wizard in mentioning is a TO-creation but you're proposing a practical solution to it. These shouldn't match-up and they won't.

We know most games never reach the higher levels, most games won't see past level 13 so this isn't really even that huge of a problem.

Also, are you working under the guise that the wizard would be against other players? This offers us two paths: First, it has to be a duel between one player and another (DnD is a team game after all so this is the only realistic option to have players against each other) and thus we don't need to worry about it as the duel only serves as one purpose. Secondly, the DM is controlling the uber-mage and the players must face him. Any good GM (sorry kevin_video...) will have to allow the mage to lose, and should be hoping for it, unless they don't understand the game they are facilitating.

But perhaps you offer up that there is a third option, that a player within the party is playing an uber-mage. This problem is handled by the gm talking to that player and illustrating the preferred power-level of the game. Problem solved. If the player continues to abuse the uber-mage than they're kicked out or lose their character. And don't cite this as unfair, the player and the DM should have set up a verbal contract about what type of game they wanted to play and as such their are consequences to breaking it.

So I am yet to see why we need to bring in a whole slew of new house-rules (no matter how nice they are. I will give you this as Frank and K are brilliant writers). 

[Anklebite]

This is just BS. I'm running one Tome game and about to start playing in another one. You know how many people are going fighter 20? None. (Although I admit that I am using a different version of fighter, but it does include the option to get the Foil ability. It just gets it a bit later, and doesn't get access to Combat bonus feats till 12th+ level.)

I can see why you might tone down the Tome Fighter a bit, but optimized casters are still more powerful. Even the Tome Fighter doesn't beat CodZilla, or an Incantatrix.

your version is a heavily nerfed one compared to the frank and K tome fighter. that explains why no one is playing fighter20.  my comment was relevant to tome fighter, not your more balanced version.

a caster is pretty screwed in any straight up fight with the tome fighter. their only hope of winning is by abusing minions, long range battlefield control, and other absurdly complicated tactics.  if the fighter gets close enough to use foil, the mage has lost.

I looked over a few tome combat feats. holy shit.   hell, just standstill+murderous intent is insanely powerful, and if you add those two mage slayer feats on it gets way to silly.

fighter: "since I threaten you, you can't cast defensively."
wizard: ok. abrupt jau-
fighter: foiled.
wizard: .... five foot step out of your reach.
fighter: standstill.
wizard: good luck, I have mirror image and all my defensive buffs up!
fighter: they don't work. at all. oh, and I have tremorsense 120ft and blindsight 30ft. does a 37 hit your spelless AC?
wizard:.... yes, it does. *fails massive save DC against standstill*
fighter: ok, I hit you. that means no spellcasting for one round. also, since you failed the save, you are now dazed.
wizard: crap.
fighter: my turn? standard action CDG! I can use it on dazed/stunning people too!
wizard: that's it, I'm rolling a fighter.


if the fighter gets within reach of the wizard (which he gets lots of help to do so from abilities and combat feats), the wizard is dead.

[Solo]

wizard: .... five foot step out of your reach.
fighter: standstill.

Stand Still [General]

[jseah]

^Anklebite:
Actually, that's about what it takes.  Since if the mage gets even 1 spell in, it's game over.  (that spell being timestop or plane shift)

I would think that would be reasonable, save that the fighter would also need a way to track a fleeing wizard and cross planar boundaries.  Give the wizard time to regroup (about three rounds or so?) and you're facing a gated minion + a thousand dmg orb to the face. 

It's rocket tag either way, and yes, fighter getting in range for foil is hitting with said rocket. 

[Anklebite]

wizard: .... five foot step out of your reach.
fighter: standstill.

Stand Still [General]

I am talking about the frank and K tome standstill. it's a bit different, and far more powerful.

[Bozwevial]

Also, the Foil ability requires either a melee or ranged touch attack.

If the Fighter isn't within melee touch range, he learns the hard way why Ray Deflection is so good.