The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[LargePrime]

That is a "Not error checkable" response.  And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.

Why would this be the case? There is no clause in COP that states that the answers given cannot be verified with another deity.

But there is a clause that says "I have no response to that" is a valid response.  And you cannot verify the truthfulness of a non answer.

[KellKheraptis]

I think it is fair to use Miracle to block COP, but that's just my opinion.

None of the gods in D&D are omniscient, the ones that are most likely to be able to answer your questions are the ones with the portfolios of magic, battle and treachery/plotting. This is because gods get information a week prior if an action affects their portfolios. Is there anywhere you can go that the gods can't see you? If you say plane shifted from Greyhawk to Faerun then Boccob presumably wouldn't be able to keep tabs on you. You could dimension jump to the Dragonlance setting or any other where the gods are sleeping/not responding, if you took precautions then no one would know what you are doing.

Still, this unravels if you have to go back to Greyhawk to fight the Wizard, but maybe someone can take this idea and run with it.

Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.  Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig.  Even if those two happen to be gods.  Now, the hitch with "blocking" CoP isn't that you can't be ubersneaky and undetectable (though that's a whole new exercise in futility with a properly paranoid wizard), but that CoP has nothing to do with the being causing the threat in relation to preparing against it.  It is entirely relative to the one asking, as such, the only two builds off the top of my head that are CoP "immune" would be Monty and his prey, Pun-pun.  That said, NI or infinite capability to reiterate turns and/or rewind so to speak would render any advantage given by CoP moot.  The question then is how do you pull it off without venturing into Monty/Pun-pun territory and without the Wizard catching on and frying your ass (and possibly your grandparent's ass via the wire hanger).

[LargePrime]

Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.

Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?

[KellKheraptis]

Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.

Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?

Unassailable by anyone, even greater deities.  Closed planes ftw.  And Mr. Beatstick has to deal with the army of Sims, quite possibly of himself for shits and giggles, all of my projected images, the AP's of the sims, and my AP if it (doubtfully) comes to that.  And that's without getting off my ass or lifting a finger, letting my schism do all the work.

[Havok4]

That is a "Not error checkable" response.  And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.

Why would this be the case? There is no clause in COP that states that the answers given cannot be verified with another deity.

But there is a clause that says "I have no response to that" is a valid response.  And you cannot verify the truthfulness of a non answer.

Then you ask the next deity the same question to get a proper answer and error check that.

[bearsarebrown]

An infinite amount of binary questions directed to an omnipotent source with infinite time leads to infinite knowledge. Does anyone disagree with this? I hope not.

Now, we dissect that.

Infinite amount of questions. How many spells slots does the Wizard have? Not enough. Unless he's Tainted or has Infinite time to rest.
Binary questions. COP is even better. You can get specific. This is obviously fulfilled.
Omnipotent Source. Deities may not be, but the spell is.
Infinite Time. This is the hard one. Except it's not just kidding you have Genesis. While not infinite, you can effectively get there.

But.. but... but they can choose to not answer!

Whoopdy fucking doo. Ask again. Then again. You have an effectively infinite amount of questions and time.

[PhaedrusXY]

Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.

Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?

Ever heard of Astral Projection? Or Similacrum? Or Gate? Now what happens when you give all those to one guy that happens to live inside an "unassailable" demiplane, and be a genius with access to magic that can predict the future? Go read the "beating the caster" thread. The wizard can literally have similacrums of creatures far more powerful than he is, like Elder Titans with Epic spellcasting, at level 20, and he never has to leave his plane to utterly destroy his enemies.

I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.

[KellKheraptis]

Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.

Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?

Ever heard of Astral Projection? Or Similacrum? Or Gate? Now what happens when you give all those to one guy that happens to live inside an "unassailable" demiplane, and be a genius with access to magic that can predict the future? Go read the "beating the caster" thread. The wizard can literally have similacrums of creatures far more powerful than he is, like Elder Titans with Epic spellcasting, at level 20, and he never has to leave his plane to utterly destroy his enemies.

I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.

My post above on the beating the caster thread was about the last one, given that it effectively ends the exercise, and even in core only.

[SorO_Lost]

Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.

And when was that a real factor?

Wizard spends some resources (spell slots) and learns an answer (god's opinion).
Other spends some resources (gold) and learns an answer (god's opinion told to him by a dancing naked women).

If you wanted the other side not to look for spellcaster resources maybe you're wizard shouldn't be looking at gods for resources hmm?

***

I suggest 'Rarely' should be understood in this context.  Not in the context of 20 identical COP in a row and all of them fail and saying, "Hey, that's not rare!  Thats 20 times in a row."

Oh have we broken down to inserting our interpretations over each other now? Heres mine.

It is not question #4,589 from wizard "Bob of BG" being blocked thus asking more questions fixes stuff.
It is round #394,200,000 of wizard "Bob of BG"'s life being blocked thus no matter the number of questions asked about this 6 second period they all fail.

Deity Joe is talked into or feels the urge to block divinations, somethign he doesn't do often but like all things when he does he does it well and being used to being absolute law in the eyes of mortals and quite literately living in a 16 week section of time simultaneously, Joe doesn't even stop to ponder if small-as-a-bug wizard wants to define rarity a per question basis just becuase he thinks repeating the same exactly thing he died six seconds ago changes everything.

We know yours and theres will no FAQ published to answer who is right. Branching out for considerations, we do have the practicability to look at where COP falls on it's face when used like this. *shurgs*

***

Omnipotent Source. Deities may not be, but the spell is.

COP being used to perceive future events is based on a deity's ability to perceive the future and not the spell's effects.
True answer is defined as you get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
If the deity doesn't know, for any of the practical reasons I've covered, or just plain doesn't care to know it fails.

Branching out form there falls into TO material, like how you can graft an obscene amount of grafts that cannot realistically fit on your body for over a million attacks per round or sharing damage back and forth creates an infinite knowledge skill bonus to know everything about everything instantly and you're in the wrong subforum to be talking about stuff like that.

***

As for killing the Wizard's clones. I'd be willing to kill orphans for XP just as easy as I would stinky kobolds or imaginary wizards. XP is XP and I thank you for the perpetual XP source more than anything else.

[bearsarebrown]

COP being used to perceive future events is based on a deity's ability to perceive the future and not the spell's effects.
True answer is defined as you get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
If the deity doesn't know, for any of the practical reasons I've covered, or just plain doesn't care to know it fails.

It doesn't matter. You can ask again. Ask if the deity doesn't care, ask if he answered randomly. With a near infinite amount of questions, even a 99% failure rate doesn't matter. And Divine Oracle will cut the time spent down quite a bit.

And in response to the TO comment,

I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.

[Havok4]

Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.

[PhaedrusXY]

Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.

No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the authors seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.

[KellKheraptis]

Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.

No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the author's seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.

Which is also worked around as described above by asking a different entity.  Hell, there's a guaranteed correct answer if you abuse Wish-generation, let alone keep one on tap as a readied action in the event something (however unlikely) unforeseen occurs.

[Havok4]

Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.

No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the authors seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.

I know that. SorO_Lost seemed to be describing the blockages as occurring completely randomly, which does not seem reasonable at all but I was attempting to think of a method of avoiding this. I agree that the DM fiat bit in COP should have no place in this discussion and that renders the wizard invincible.

[juton]

Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.  Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig.  Even if those two happen to be gods.  Now, the hitch with "blocking" CoP isn't that you can't be ubersneaky and undetectable (though that's a whole new exercise in futility with a properly paranoid wizard), but that CoP has nothing to do with the being causing the threat in relation to preparing against it.  It is entirely relative to the one asking, as such, the only two builds off the top of my head that are CoP "immune" would be Monty and his prey, Pun-pun.  That said, NI or infinite capability to reiterate turns and/or rewind so to speak would render any advantage given by CoP moot.  The question then is how do you pull it off without venturing into Monty/Pun-pun territory and without the Wizard catching on and frying your ass (and possibly your grandparent's ass via the wire hanger).

No it does have something to do with the being causing the threat. If I'm chillin' on Faerun and plotting to go to Greyhawk for some assasination, the gods of Faerun know I'm plotting but the ones in Greyhawk don't. Boccob will know I'm coming a week before hand, but if my prey goes to a plane say in Dragonlance and I meet him there all his CoP questions will be for naught.

[LargePrime]

An infinite amount of binary questions directed to an omnipotent source with infinite time leads to infinite knowledge. Does anyone disagree with this? I hope not.

I do.  The spell says that COP answers on a topic can be blocked by another diety or forces.  Does not matter who you ask, answers are blocked on the topic.  If answers are blocked on the topic then answers about the block can be blocked.  Thus infinate questions all return nulls, not because what you contacted does not want to answer, but because they cannot.

I suggest 'Rarely' should be understood in this context.  Not in the context of 20 identical COP in a row and all of them fail and saying, "Hey, that's not rare!  Thats 20 times in a row."

Oh have we broken down to inserting our interpretations over each other now? Heres mine.

It is not question #4,589 from wizard "Bob of BG" being blocked thus asking more questions fixes stuff.
It is round #394,200,000 of wizard "Bob of BG"'s life being blocked thus no matter the number of questions asked about this 6 second period they all fail.

I think perhaps there is a miscommunication.  I think we are agreeing, with different scopes.  It's "Sorry Bob, all questions on this topic are blocked, cause some 'diety or forces' filed form BLOCKCOP101.  I cannot answer any questions on this topic, and since I can't, I get to answer in ways that are going to take forever to debug, as I am bored and WAY smarter than you."  Are we agreed?

COP being used to perceive future events is based on a deity's ability to perceive the future and not the spell's effects.
True answer is defined as you get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
If the deity doesn't know, for any of the practical reasons I've covered, or just plain doesn't care to know it fails.

It doesn't matter. You can ask again. Ask if the deity doesn't care, ask if he answered randomly. With a near infinite amount of questions, even a 99% failure rate doesn't matter. And Divine Oracle will cut the time spent down quite a bit.

[sarcasm]Right, because one would never follow up with another form BLOCKCOP101 that states you many not talk about fight club.[/sarcasm]

Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.

No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the authors seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.

Thats right it is bullshit DM fiat.  Its not like it is actually part of the spell description.  And there is rule -1 that tells the DM that "wizards always win", so if there is a decision to be made, it always goes to the wizard.  And if it is between two wizards, it goes to whoever is the wizardyist!

[PhaedrusXY]

Thats right it is bullshit DM fiat.  Its not like it is actually part of the spell description.  And there is rule -1 that tells the DM that "wizards always win", so if there is a decision to be made, it always goes to the wizard.  And if it is between two wizards, it goes to whoever is the wizardyist!

Yeah, it's a COPout. It's a way for the DM to just say "It doesn't work" whenever he wants, but the specific in-game reason given is because a deity intervened. So yeah, I think that is just a load of crap. I absolutely think it is bad DMing to have deities intervening to block spells, or interfere with the PCs at all, unless it is heavily related to the plot of the campaign somehow. It sounds like some bullshit Gygax would have pulled in a game he were DMing, right after he killed half the party because they pushed the giant, candy-like, red button, which meant instant death with no saving throws to a randomly chosen half of the party.

The fact that it is written into the spell description doesn't make it any less BS.

[LargePrime]

Thats right it is bullshit DM fiat.  Its not like it is actually part of the spell description.  And there is rule -1 that tells the DM that "wizards always win", so if there is a decision to be made, it always goes to the wizard.  And if it is between two wizards, it goes to whoever is the wizardyist!

Yeah, it's a COPout. It's a way for the DM to just say "It doesn't work" whenever he wants, but the specific in-game reason given is because a deity intervened. So yeah, I think that is just a load of crap. I absolutely think it is bad DMing to have deities intervening to block spells, or interfere with the PCs at all, unless it is heavily related to the plot of the campaign somehow. It sounds like some bullshit Gygax would have pulled in a game he were DMing, right after he killed half the party because they pushed the giant, candy-like, red button, which meant instant death with no saving throws to a randomly chosen half of the party.

The fact that it is written into the spell description doesn't make it any less BS.

But how do you really feel?  I think its BS value is directly related to its [ab]use.  But in THIS case, we are talking about TWO PLAYERS.  Thus it is valid to be pointing at.  So much of CO is pointing at things smaller than this!  And this is relatively useful in curbing the spells abuse.  I honestly would have thought you would have been advocating using to to curb abuse of COP.

[PhaedrusXY]

Who said we're talking about two players? And no, I don't think it is ok for the DM to invoke "deific intervention" to deal with a spell. If it is that problematic, just house rule it to fix it, or ban it. Saying a god blocked it is just being an asshole (unless the specific campaign involves the PCs directly or indirectly pitting themselves against a god, or a god would have a good reason for blocking their spell). A good DM doesn't deal with problematic spells by being a dick. He uses house rules to fix them, and tells the players up front about them.

Also, in hypothetical discussions like this, I don't think we should be invoking things that require DM whim to even work. The DM should be neutral, and shouldn't be making any kind of judgements about what is fair or not for this kind of thing.

If the would-be mage-killer uses a Miracle spell to block COP from revealing any information about them at all, I think that's fine. There's your deific intervention, per the spell description, and it doesn't require any whimsical decision from the DM/arbiter. I think Mind Blank should also block COP from learning information about the attacker specifically, but with clever questions you can get around that. However I think if you use a Miracle, you should be able to block even indirect questions. I'm fine with that. I'm just not fine with saying the DM is going to step in and mess with things just because he feels like it, especially in a hypothetical discussion like this.

[juton]

I'm just not fine with saying the DM is going to step in and mess with things just because he feels like it, especially in a hypothetical discussion like this.

We should also remember some DMs are crazy. I've literally seen CoP abused in the most CharOp manner possible, so it can and does happen.