Author Topic: Dragon Disciple optimization  (Read 22504 times)

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Solo

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2010, 07:45:23 PM »
try this:
[spoiler]
Human(Large size: due to Spell(see Equipment)
Fighter 4/ Bard 4/ Dragon Disciple 4

Attributes(28pt buy):

26 Str(base 14 +4 Item +2 lvl +4 DD +2 Size)
16 Dex(base 13 +1 lvl +4 Item -2 Size)
16 Con(base 14 +2 Item)
13 Int(base 13)
10 Wis(base 10)
14 Cha(base 12  +2 Item)

Feats:
Combat Expertise(Human bonus)
Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain)(Fighter bonus)
Improved Trip(Fighter bonus)
Weapon Specialize(Fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Imp Initiative
3rd lvl: Weapon Focus(Spiked Chain)
6th lvl: Blind fight
9th lvl: Dodge
12th lvl: Multi Attack

+3 Natural Armor
2d8 Breath Weapon(1/day)
2x Claw(1d6)
Bite(1d8)


Equipment:(88000gp budget)
13250gp +3 Mithral Spiked Breastplate(light Armor, +8 Armor bonus, +5 max dex)
11325gp +1 Spellstoring Adamantine Spiked Chain
12000gp Boots of Speed
3460gp Permanently enlarged at lvl 16 CL
16000gp +4 Belt of Str 
16000gp +4 Gloves of Dex
4000gp +2 Amulet of Con
4000gp +2 Cloak of Cha
3000gp Wand of Extend Spell
2000gp +1 Ring of Protection
300gp Wand of CLW(20 charges)
150gp wand of shield(10 charges)
2250gp Wand of Vampiric touch(5th lvl caster)10 charges
8gp Locked Gauntlet
87773gp spent


Spells per day:
3/3/4

Spells known:
0-lvl:
Flare
Ghost Sound
Lullaby
Resistance
Mage Hand
open/close

1st lvl:
Hideous Laughter
Hypnotism
Grease

2nd lvl:
Rage
Heroism


Tactics:
cast Vampiric Touch into Spellstoring weapon
cast buffs..... Heroism, Rage, Grease on Armor(gain +10 vs Grapple), Shield
Charge.... attack with Trip Attack... wack when he is down
Full Attack next round .... repeat[/spoiler]

 :D
Certainly looks interesting. I'll have to think it over.

Would you suppose that starting off with a level in Bard is better than starting with Fighter?

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Ithamar

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2010, 07:49:24 PM »
Quote from: Solo
I always suspected that the increases you get from DD do not stack with the ones you get from the template.
That is a distinct possibility, but the PrC simply calls them "Ability Boost (Ex)" and makes no reference to the fact they are from you getting more and more draconic.  It even states:  "These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement."  Then under "Dragon Apotheosis" it indicates "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template....and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma."

Generally regarded as a sucky PrC, but can make for a great class with a literal reading of the stat boosting features.  Also pairs quite nicely in any gestalt gish build as the 2 good saves and d12 HD are pretty valuable.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2010, 08:14:29 PM »
Pixie 4 (LA)/Sorcerer 4/ DD 4.
Have Flyby-attack (MM), and a reach weapon. They are now powerless, because you are invisible.

Be a ghost.  You're invisible and incorporeal.
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Anklebite

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2010, 08:51:00 PM »
I always suspected that the increases you get from DD do not stack with the ones you get from the template.
but do they by RAW? RAI, obviously not.
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Solo

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2010, 08:59:47 PM »
It never says anything about not getting the template stat increases, or the LA, unforotuantely.

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snakeman830

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2010, 09:02:01 PM »
It never says anything about not getting the template stat increases, or the LA, unforotuantely.
There was an FAQ on the LA issue.  The ruling was that you don't gain the LA of a template from transformative classes or prestige classes.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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[/spoiler]

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carnivore

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2010, 08:16:50 AM »
Would you suppose that starting off with a level in Bard is better than starting with Fighter?
Absolutely ..... might as well gain the Boost to Skill points right away ..... unless you want More Hit points in which case take the Fighter :

16 Skill points vs 4 Hp .... i would rather have the skills.... 4 Balance, 4 Tumble, 4 Escape Artist, 4 Bluff ... seems better

 :D

Littha

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #67 on: March 10, 2010, 08:36:35 AM »
It never says anything about not getting the template stat increases, or the LA, unforotuantely.
There was an FAQ on the LA issue.  The ruling was that you don't gain the LA of a template from transformative classes or prestige classes.

But you will get the stat boosts?

Considering you get an LA 3 template in 10 levels of a class that requires spellcasting but doesn't advance it i would hope you do.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 08:45:01 AM by Littha »

snakeman830

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2010, 12:22:36 PM »
It never says anything about not getting the template stat increases, or the LA, unforotuantely.
There was an FAQ on the LA issue.  The ruling was that you don't gain the LA of a template from transformative classes or prestige classes.

But you will get the stat boosts?

Considering you get an LA 3 template in 10 levels of a class that requires spellcasting but doesn't advance it i would hope you do.
The intent was pretty obvious: the ability score increases you get are a part of the template you get at the end.  They just did a poor job of actually writing that out.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Paradox

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #69 on: March 10, 2010, 02:02:59 PM »
Technically they stack, since the stats gained leveling through the class is:

Quote
Ability Boost (Ex)

As a dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table: The Dragon Disciple.

These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.

Even if you say that stats gained through a template are applied the same way, implicitly (maybe explicitly) all stats gained through leveling up stack with themselves.

Anklebite

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2010, 02:06:48 PM »
Technically they stack, since the stats gained leveling through the class is:

Quote
Ability Boost (Ex)

As a dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table: The Dragon Disciple.

These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.

Even if you say that stats gained through a template are applied the same way, implicitly (maybe explicitly) all stats gained through leveling up stack with themselves.

:lmao

that you so much for finding that. I may just have to play a dragon disciple in my next game.
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Ithamar

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2010, 02:12:18 PM »
Like I said previously, Dragon Disciple isn't actually that bad of a class if you read it literally.  Duskblade 10 / Dragon Disciple 10 can be quite an impressive melee brute.
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Anklebite

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2010, 02:15:11 PM »
Like I said previously, Dragon Disciple isn't actually that bad of a class if you read it literally.  Duskblade 10 / Dragon Disciple 10 can be quite an impressive melee brute.
...and now I'm going to have to use that build, too.   :lol
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Beltendu

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2010, 03:22:51 PM »
Interesting.  I've always read those sorts of PRCs as basically being "now that you've got all the effects of having the template, having paid for it's LA as part of the PRC, you now get the template keyword too."  If you think about it, a template with LA is sorta like a PRC with LA levels - so the DD PRC is probably meant to spend LA levels giving you the template and 10-LA levels giving you other stuff too.  I'll have to go back over the text, though I imagine a lot of GMs would say no to effectively getting the template twice (or 1 and a fraction, perhaps).

Ithamar

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2010, 03:27:35 PM »
Most DM's would say no, of course.  And I'd never try it in a "regular" game.  But if you're in a high-powered campaign, it's worth a shot.
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Hijax

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2010, 03:34:02 PM »
Most DM's would say no, of course.  And I'd never try it in a "regular" game.  But if you're in a high-powered campaign, it's worth a shot.

i would probably say yes. he's playing an almost noncaster, so he deserves a power boost.
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Paradox

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Re: Dragon Disciple optimization
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2010, 07:38:36 PM »
What really matters is that the person dming this build versus the giacamook allows it, or uses dm fiat to say no.