Author Topic: Optimization Challenge: Completing a campaign in Godmode with no treassure.  (Read 11261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Dragonborn Mongrelfolk DFA with the Wings aspect. Take Flyby attack and Flyby breath. Throw around your fire breath an infinite number of times each round. Cry when he makes you fight monsters with fire resistance.
IIRC, that's a 3.0 free action, which would be updated to a swift action in 3.5

And a dragonborn ooze paragenasi is better (-2 dex +6 con - 2 cha).
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Going for longevity, versatility, and lack of items needed.

Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/War Weaver 5/xxx 5 for the Wizard

Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 for a tank/BSF

Druid 20 'Nuff said.  Draconic Wild Shape, Planar Touchstone to snag Giant Size, pwn.

And for a gish, the Chrono-Legionaire.  Oh, and don't skimp on the Synchronicity or Affinity Field ;)

Now, with the above, you are guaranteed going first, thanks to the Chrono and/or Wizard always being able to act in the surprise round.  Make sure the Wizard is also able to initiate White Raven Tactics.  Once he does, the Synchronicity Shuffle begins, and everyone will get infinite turns.  Goodbye enemies, and laugh at the DM who thought depriving you of WBL, the RIGHT to write your own backstory (mutable fluff), and full available resources (stupid armor rules, screwing melee more than it already is) could ever stand before the might of a Time Lord.  Thanks you, and good night :D

PS :
[spoiler]I am shamelessly merciless towards stupidity, ignorance, and flagrant disregard for historical fact.  Have the DM handle a real sword.  As in tempered, balanced, and folded.  Ask him how heavy it is, and watch his jaw drop when you tell him that feather in his hand (a longsword mind you, as in a REAL one, meant to take down horses) weighs all of 4-5 lbs.  Then have him put on a suit of properly made plate armor.  Betcha he'll be amazed when he realizes he can jump just fine in it.  If there aren't these available, I guess aim for the next best thing, but seriously, he needs to get his facts straight before trying to enforce "realism" in a game.  Is there a chapter of ARMA there?[/spoiler]
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Arms and Equipment Guide, pg 95.

Tessellated Armor.  With the spoken command word the armor goes from a tiny box in your hand to your body, in one round.




...oh wait, no magic items.  :banghead



seriously... do what Kell said.

If this guy has it in his head that armor is the worst thing D&D has to offer, have someone play a core-only, full battlefield-control-dedicated conjurer.
See how he feels about ridiculous armor rules after his melee guys lose the fifth straight fight in a row with no save.
Have a malconvoker start planar binding 14 or 15 HD devils at level 10 and have them stand watch.  While you're at it ask them if their armor gets uncomfortable.

Quote
If you are travelling,  standing watch over the camp at night, or anything else with a less than 90% probability of combat, the DM will rule that the armor became so uncomfortable that your character have taken it off.

Like this.  No offense to your buddy, but I'm sorry... this is just stupid.  The whole point of having someone standing on watch is that your group is expecting some kind of ambush.  That person is on guard duty, prepared for combat at any time.  Tell him that by his logic castle guards, caravan guards, and the city watch shouldn't be wearing armor either.  After all, they aren't expecting combat, right?  They're just on watch.


And also let him know that denying characters appropriate WBL totally wrecks the CR system (not that it was good for much in the first place, mind you).  A party without their wealth is anywhere from a half to 3 ECL lower than their average character level, if not more.


Now of course I'm not totally against low magic/low wealth games, but in my experience they are hard to do.  If you are going to limit magic items for the party, you have to do it for the enemies too, or you will easily kill the party with every other encounter and destroy any suspension of disbelief the players might have about your world.  Not to mention spellcasters have to be a rare thing in general, to explain the lack of prevalence of magical things.  If you have even one spellcaster in your party he's easily one of the most devastating things this world has ever seen.

You also have to limit the appearance of any type of monster that is "magic related" in any way (possibly to zero), to go along with your lack of magic items and spellcasting in general.
This includes constructs, non-incorporeal undead, magical beasts, dragons, fey, elementals, and outsiders (divine magic is still magic).  Also note that without magic to help you, incorporeal undead can also easily lead to a TPK.
And depending on how your world handles the origins of such things, you could possibly have to include oozes, aberrations and things with the shapechanger subtype in that list as well.

Does your DM bother to think things through this far?  Or does he simply like to watch his players squirm under what would otherwise be a trivial fight?

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
What's up with all the hate?  It's not like the DM is deliberately out to nerf melees because they are too powerful, he's just not thinking of the game AS a game where stuff like walking around in uncomfortable armor is hand-waved.  Deliberately trying to break the game with a caster won't STOP the DM from being tight on magical items and whatnot, it will just get casters banned, and it will make you an ass. 

Anyhow, I definitely agree that at least some of the players should be casters - no sense in subjecting yourselves to his wacky ideas on encumberance, after all.   If the party needs a frontliner, I could see a duskblade (PHB II) working out well.  They can cast mage armor on themselves (as a swift action with a dip into abjurant champion), and are full BAB, etc.  If it's age of mortals, you could be a reformed knight of the thorn who has turned freelance, for example. 

Another fun idea might be a gnome artificer who specializes in poisons and alchemical items, and semi-permanent items such as wands.  Could be a hoot to play, and might help the party out a lot if you churn out potions and scrolls all the time.

On the caster side, I'll suggest a tinker gnome Shadowcraft Mage.

And as a sidenote, did Sturm ever take his armor off, like, ever?  Every fight he was wearing his full plate, even when the party was trekking through the swamp of Xak Tsaroth.  It seems to me like there's precedence in DL for melees wearing armor 24/7 :P

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Yeah, no need for hating on the restrictions.  He says the game's fun, so no harm done. 

The supposed massive cumbersomeness of armor not really that uncommon a misconception, and low magic games are fine too, provided that the DM doesn't slip up and kill the party with a ghost or something.  And it's not like he's kevin_video's DM.



With a low amount of gold available, what you really need to do is go slay a dragon.  Dragon slaying = massive hoard of gold.  Scout around, find out what the wealthiest dragon around is.


Battle dancers (dragon compendium) get charisma to AC, which certainly helps obviate the need for armor.

Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

carnivore

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
first this guy is not acquainted with facts from planet earth ..... about the restrictiveness of Armor.... completely without a clue:

look here for more examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTo9780s89A&feature=related

there is lots more just look around for the videos

i have seen on the History Channel examples of people on FULL PLATE doing gymnastics ....... just because he is in poor physical condition does not mean ADVENTURING Characters need to be also


i would suggest using all Warforged:

Dragonborn Warforged Wizard
Warforged Cleric
Warforged Psion
Warforged Crusader or Warblade


 :D

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
If it helps any, I made a houserule to deal with this sort of game (as most DMs in my area prefer lower wealth games).  You get the following bonuses at each level, which are based on the VoP bonuses.  This is free... you just get them.  However, WBL is set to 1/10th normal.  With the bonuses given, you can even play with virtually no magic items (you'd still want stuff like Adamantium swords and decent Full Plate).  This might allow your DM to play the world he wants without destroying the usefulness of any melee class.

[spoiler]2:  +1 Enhancement Bonus to AC
4:  +1 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, +2 Enhancement Bonus to AC
5:  +1 Resistance Bonus to all saves
6:  +3 Enhancement Bonus to AC, +1 Deflection Bonus to AC
7:  +2 Enhancement Bonus to a stat
8:  +4 Enhancement Bonus to AC, +1 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor, +2 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls
9:  Energy Resistance 5, +2 Resistance Bonus to all saves,
10:  +5 Enhancement Bonus to AC
11:  +4/+2 Enhancement Bonuses to two stats
12:  +6 Enhancement Bonus to AC,  +3 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, +2 Deflection Bonus to AC
13:  +3 Resistance Bonus to all saves,
14:  +7 Enhancement Bonus to AC, Energy Resistance 10
15:  +6/+4/+2 Enhancement Bonuses to three stats,
16:  +8 Enhancement Bonus to AC,  +4 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, +2 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor
17:  +4 Resistance Bonus to all saves
18:  +9 Enhancement Bonus to AC, +3 Deflection Bonus to AC
19:   +8/+6/+4/+2 Enhancement Bonuses to four stats, Energy Resistance 15
20:  +10 Enhancement Bonus to AC,  +5 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls[/spoiler]

See if your DM would impliment a system like that.  For what it's worth, the rest of these house rules are found in the Fixing Gear thread in the House Rules forum, near the end (I adjusted them a bit from the original).

JaronK

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
I mentioned this before, but it appears to have been overlooked: OP said his DM doesn't use online stuff, including errata. That means the Cleric can take DMM (Persistent), DMM (Chain), and DMM (Reach) without needing the relevant MM feats first. The Wizard can give up his fifth level bonus feat for Spontaneous Divintation and spontaneously convert his spells into divination spells from any list. He doesn't even need to know them. :P
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
I mentioned this before, but it appears to have been overlooked: OP said his DM doesn't use online stuff, including errata. That means the Cleric can take DMM (Persistent), DMM (Chain), and DMM (Reach) without needing the relevant MM feats first. The Wizard can give up his fifth level bonus feat for Spontaneous Divintation and spontaneously convert his spells into divination spells from any list. He doesn't even need to know them. :P

Maybe combine with the trick for getting a retardedly high number of turn attempts that isn't item dependent (Sinfire, I'm looking at you), and a typical GOD wizard who steals the DM's notes for party immortality?  Also, I saw somewhere on here a trick with Reserves of Strength and Alter Self.  Anyone else think casting as a Cleric 12 at level 1-3 is sexy?
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

E-mail

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • Email
Like I said he just doesn't 'get' game mechanics. To him, a level 4 fighter is a level 4 fighter for the purpose of calculating encounters wether he is in his sleeping bag or in his armor. To this DM, telling a story is what matters, and these tedious game mechanics better not get in the way of what he likes. A life on the road is a life of being broke, wether you are level 1 or 21, and plate armor is so heavy that you will only want to put it on moments before you are hoisted onto your mount with a crane. Thats how he likes to picture the world in which his campaign takes place, and it is not up for discussion. You can CharOp or shut up.

The DMM trick is neat, and it would no doubt fly it any of us were to attempt it, as the DM is as oblivious to game mechanics that help us as he is to game mechanics that hurt us. He dosent really care how much we optimize, as long as the fights remain cinematic, and we don't do anything that he deems unrealistic.

Akalsaris: I can only recall one incident of Sturm taking off his armor, and that was right before he faced the feared blue dragon highlord one on one. But no matter how much I optimize, no character of ours will ever be as tough as Caramon, Flint or Sturm, as that would be unrealistic.

Hand_of_Vecna

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 96
    • Email
Have all your mellee characters dip binder and bind Savnok, this only requires 1 level of binder and the inproved binding feat. He grants a set of MW platemail, DR 1/piercing and a ability that lets you switch places with another party member and most importantly you are magically compelled to never remove an item that grants an AC bonus.

Cleric preferably with cl boosting (what's the best non item dependent cl boosting for cleric?) casts magic vestment on everyone's shields and shirts/robes.

Wizard extended mage armor.

Druid done.

Someone could play a frenzied berzerker ubercharger they get by just fine literally having a AC lowwer than the broad side of a barn. Since you can't stack on items dump wis so they can be easily subdued by any caster.

Are you or anyone in your group reasonably hearty? Get some real armor (or as real as you can get) and wear it for a few days. Act real casual about it volunteer to get things for people.

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Play a different game system, honestly. I see he wants DL but he isn't running a D&D game. Tell him realism and D&D have no place at the same table. If he wants a story game then tell him to try one with a Story Teller not a DM. I'm sure there are many systems which can really deliver what he wants the game to be and none would interfere with the fun of the group, since that fun seems to be RP derived. Change to something that doesn't rely on what he is stripping from the game; WoD, GURPS, Burning Wheel, etc... find what better fits his running style or quit letting him run.

If my life weren't so busy i would volunteer to run a DL game here and let your group play in it so you all could get a different perspective on ways things can be done. I've been there done that with a DM that didn't get mechanics and it isn't fun when the rules change every couple of minutes.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Have all your mellee characters dip binder and bind Savnok, this only requires 1 level of binder and the inproved binding feat. He grants a set of MW platemail, DR 1/piercing and a ability that lets you switch places with another party member and most importantly you are magically compelled to never remove an item that grants an AC bonus.
:lol WIN!
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

lianightdemon

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 196
Quote
Play a different game system, honestly. I see he wants DL but he isn't running a D&D game. Tell him realism and D&D have no place at the same table.

And as a larper he should know that already. Larping breaks the line between reality and Fantasy even more then D&D does.

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Like I said he just doesn't 'get' game mechanics. To him, a level 4 fighter is a level 4 fighter for the purpose of calculating encounters wether he is in his sleeping bag or in his armor. To this DM, telling a story is what matters, and these tedious game mechanics better not get in the way of what he likes. A life on the road is a life of being broke, wether you are level 1 or 21, and plate armor is so heavy that you will only want to put it on moments before you are hoisted onto your mount with a crane. Thats how he likes to picture the world in which his campaign takes place, and it is not up for discussion. You can CharOp or shut up.

Pardon my derailment of the thread...


This may seem like an odd question, but I'm curious about something:

During sessions where he is a player, does his story supersede the other player's stories at the table?  Like does his character's background take precedence in most every situation while everyone else is pretty much a spectator?

And during sessions when he is running, does every single important NPC you meet have the ability to kill you all outright with little effort on their part?
And do they use brute force and coercion to get the party on the plot train and onto the quest?

Despite how this sounds I'm not making any assumptions.  Just wondering.




But yeah, on topic...

Binding Savnok, while hilarious, is only going to piss your DM off, as is trying to create any kind of fluff in your background related to Savnok's effect ("My guy is a true warrior.  He never takes his armor off in spite of the discomfort, yada yada.")
Depending on how many people are in your group you are going to want mostly casters... perhaps one blaster, and one or two Dex based melee glass cannons (I wonder of a CoCL Dex-based uber charger is possible?), and maybe a druid.
Based on the brief description of encounters your goal is to have the enemies dead or locked down with battlefield control before they get a turn, even if the BC only holds them for that one turn.  Find an excuse for at least one party member to always be watching his back.  Say that he was abused as a child and is insanely paranoid, thus is constantly scanning the area with various magics and divinations, always expects the worst from everyone he meets.  Hell, even have someone else in the party be the exact opposite (laid-back, trusting to the point of naive) to create a foil for him, and use the situations to create inter-party banter.
Of course in the end, I shudder to think what this DM might find "unrealistic" about a typical D&D game.

jojolagger

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 951
As a boost to tony's on-topic paranoid char, have him be an escaped slave who uses his chains to beat people. (If they're spiked chains just say his masters were very cruel.) There are still some looking form him, and he fears the day they show up.

Also take the landlord feat at level 9. I mean every one in the party. That's 320,000 gp to spend on your flying castle at level 20 in a four player game, before WBL (with WBL all in the castle it is 9,280,000 gp).

Combine them. Say you also got some other people out when you left. One became a very rich business man, and he acts as the supplier for the landlord feat.

The Shadow Smith PrC in tome of magic might help, as at level ten you can make yourself a +5 Whatever as a standard action.

The one flaw with using warforged is that while they are in the MM III their feats aren't.
Fluff wise a young but powerful magic-user found one of (whatever DL's uberwizard is)'s old designs. Or an unusual magic-user(guess who?) teleported (some uber reality changing teleport, he could get access to it) near a small city and started work on a large and unusual building. Then you can be the the first warforged in DL. Then you steal the dragon orbs (they're like dragonshards) so that he can power some device to get back to Eberron and bring back supplies/reinforcements. Then take over DL and use the resources from DL to take over all of Eberron. The move on to the next setting.
Countdown to Zombie Apocalypse 97
When you see this, copy it into your sig and -1
:lovefirefox
Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
The one flaw with using warforged is that while they are in the MM III their feats aren't.
Incorrect, the warforged feats are printed in a sidebar right after the Warforged Charger statblock.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Your party needs to consist of a wizard, druid, cleric, and sorcerer.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

jojolagger

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 951
The one flaw with using warforged is that while they are in the MM III their feats aren't.
Incorrect, the warforged feats are printed in a sidebar right after the Warforged Charger statblock.
That is only a few of their feats. Psi-forged isn't there, and you also won't get warforged Items.
Countdown to Zombie Apocalypse 97
When you see this, copy it into your sig and -1
:lovefirefox
Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Here's another take on it that might have been mentioned already: since you're going to have a low AC anyhow, why not make an AOO fighter who wants to get hit so he can whack the other guy back?  Use Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit, along tripping, DR, and whatnot.  

As for binding Savnok, I'm in a game with a similar DM who is also quite restrictive with magic items - for example, as a level 13 ranger, I was still using a non-masterwork composite longbow.   The druid/master of many forms/warshaper wanted some barding for his bear form, but the DM didn't think anybody ever would make such an item for a bear, so he seriously considered the 1-level binder dip just for Savnok :P  

Last session the DM caved to our incessant whining and unexpectedly gave us each a major magic item (I got the Anarchic +3 Composite Longbow, so I went from non-masterwork to +5 immediately), as well as 75K or so to spend each, which was about 1/4 of our expected WBL.  So things got a bit better with game balance and whatnot as all the non-casters went on a spending spree :P