Author Topic: Nar Demonbinder revisit time  (Read 8105 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« on: February 23, 2010, 08:30:34 PM »
This one is in the excerpts
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2
and minor detail here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20030528a
clarifying the Sorc casting on the Nar side of things !!

NarD popped up a lot, on early dual caster builds; like pre early entry stuff around 2004.
So ... looking at it with CO-Jaundiced eyes 5-years later than the last post on it, from the Old CO board.

It's not that hard to get the pre-reqs.
Cleric 7 or Ur-priest 4 or CO-trickery like Cleric + Heighten
then you get NarD 1 and that's all you need.
Mystic Theurge 5 or 6 if you have UrP.

Questions:
(1) ... What's the missing level 7 stuff, from the class progression ?
(2) ... Does later Wiz/Sorc casting level improvers work with this, like Versatile cheese ?
(3) ... if so this gets multiple 9s going rather easily, yes ?
(4) ... and possibly a Trip 9s or even QUAD 9s build, that doesn't need Beholder Mage !!

problem #2 is solvable via Sublime Chord (yawn)

What do you think?
There's got to be some 5+ year cheese, to re-fromage this?

bearsarebrown

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 08:57:02 PM »
I'm confused. NArD only gets 8s, right? And only one known...

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 09:41:25 PM »
Hmm... how about a wizard/Nar demonbinder/ultimate magus build?
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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 09:56:40 PM »
Hmm... how about a wizard/Nar demonbinder/ultimate magus build?
Wiz5/UM1/ND1/UM+8/xxx?

Spontaneous Div for UM entry, and Favored(skills)+sanctum spell(casting) for early entry into ND.  Might not have all the necessary feats though.

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 12:07:29 AM »
Damn, beat me to the UM build, it's really the only time I've seen demonbinder used.  It's tricky though, because demonbinder doesn't naturally give 1st level spontaneous spells, so you have to do something shady like spontaneous divinations or master cyst for the wizard side.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 12:09:57 AM »
Quote
The demonbinder's caster level is equal to his demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice

Hmmm.... seems great if you want to desk out that CL with Master Spellthief.

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 12:11:00 AM »
Quote
The demonbinder's caster level is equal to his demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice

Hmmm.... seems great if you want to desk out that CL with Master Spellthief.
oh fuck true arcane dilliante with that. yay for caster level 82 holy words, amirite?
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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 03:47:47 AM »
I remember from the old thread a build that entered via Blackguard. Not the most optimal, but an interesting take on things. I feel as though there's an Anima Mage build that could be made, but I'm not really coming up with anything satisfactory that wouldn't be better without the Nar Demonbinder.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 08:10:29 PM »
BearsR - yep it stops at 8s, but I figured there must be a way to get 9s out of it ... although if it can't, meh.

Now that i've googled it, silly me, there are some threads with NarD in them.
NarD pops up a lot in the old Foch Lyrist  thread ---> http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

Caster Level - "The demonbinder's caster level is equal to his demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice."
Niice.
That'll boost CL numbers rather well, it can use Bloodlines (minimally), and it can use Class Level related stuff / counting.


Really far afield ... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm
Do Incantations count for the 4th level spells entry part?
If so ... much cheese is therein !!


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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 09:45:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure they don't. I could be wrong but I remember not including them in my Prerequisites Handbook.
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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 02:38:48 AM »
BearsR - yep it stops at 8s, but I figured there must be a way to get 9s out of it ... although if it can't, meh.

Hmm, sublime coard?

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 04:25:49 AM »
Sublime CHORD. But, entry to Subchord will probably mean a loss of a caster level in any case.
NarDB is great for Ultimate maguses, though. Also, NarDBs had a specific set spell list, so shenanigans get tricky there, anyway.

But... Since  they're spellcasters, they can qualify for 9th level spell slots via extra slot, and even spells via Extra Spell.

vilenatas

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2010, 03:56:54 AM »
SpT1/Wiz5/Inc1/UM1/ND1/SE1/Inc+1/UM+9
Not sure how I would lay out the feats, but it should be pretty solid without anything really crazy.  8thND spells 9thwiz, DMM and cooperative metamagic, plus the stuff you get from UM.

SpT1/Wiz5/Inc1/UM1/ND1/UM9/Inc+2 gives up DMM to get Incantatrix3.

I'm trying to slip in sublime chord for more caster level craziness.  Anyone have any idea's how to use UM to advance ND and Sublime Chord so that the build can go heavy Chr with decent int, instead of fairly heavy on both ends.


Hijax

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2010, 04:43:57 AM »
I'm trying to slip in sublime chord for more caster level craziness.  Anyone have any idea's how to use UM to advance ND and Sublime Chord so that the build can go heavy Chr with decent int, instead of fairly heavy on both ends.



I was working on something similar once(Using Beholder Mage/Sublime Chord). the problem is that arcane preparation(feat from CM[or was it CArc?]) doesn't qualify for UM, since UM says 'from a spellbook'. but i guess it would qualify for the advancement. hm. so if you nab wizard to qualify for UM, you can use arcane preparation to make it advance the spontaneous caster of your choice.
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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2010, 09:36:16 AM »
I'm trying to slip in sublime chord for more caster level craziness.  Anyone have any idea's how to use UM to advance ND and Sublime Chord so that the build can go heavy Chr with decent int, instead of fairly heavy on both ends.



I was working on something similar once(Using Beholder Mage/Sublime Chord). the problem is that arcane preparation(feat from CM[or was it CArc?]) doesn't qualify for UM, since UM says 'from a spellbook'. but i guess it would qualify for the advancement. hm. so if you nab wizard to qualify for UM, you can use arcane preparation to make it advance the spontaneous caster of your choice.

Wouldn't a little insanity using Prestige Ranger or Prestige Paladin (ab)using Southern Magician and Sword of the Arcane Order+Arcane Preparation allow you to qualify for Ultimate Magus and then apply the prepared spellcasting progression to whichever class you advanced with the PrC? It's a 4 level dip but I can see some craziness here... just don't ask me to make an actual build out of it, though the dip would seem to make spellbooks valuable treasures for spontaneous casters using this method.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 09:38:12 AM by RelentlessImp »
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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2010, 09:44:23 AM »
Actually, the mechanic of SotAO subsumes the need for Arcane Preparation.  You prepare them from a spellbook.  Unless of course you're a broken hoser who's casting mechanic isn't the Paladin's :P
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Hijax

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2010, 09:50:11 AM »
I'm trying to slip in sublime chord for more caster level craziness.  Anyone have any idea's how to use UM to advance ND and Sublime Chord so that the build can go heavy Chr with decent int, instead of fairly heavy on both ends.



I was working on something similar once(Using Beholder Mage/Sublime Chord). the problem is that arcane preparation(feat from CM[or was it CArc?]) doesn't qualify for UM, since UM says 'from a spellbook'. but i guess it would qualify for the advancement. hm. so if you nab wizard to qualify for UM, you can use arcane preparation to make it advance the spontaneous caster of your choice.

Wouldn't a little insanity using Prestige Ranger or Prestige Paladin and Sword of the Arcane Order+Arcane Preparation allow you to qualify for Ultimate Magus and then apply the prepared spellcasting progression to whichever class you advanced with the PrC? It's a 4 level dip but I can see some craziness here... just don't ask me to make an actual build out of it, though the dip would seem to make spellbooks valuable treasures for spontaneous casters using this method.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2010, 09:53:57 AM »
I'm trying to slip in sublime chord for more caster level craziness.  Anyone have any idea's how to use UM to advance ND and Sublime Chord so that the build can go heavy Chr with decent int, instead of fairly heavy on both ends.



I was working on something similar once(Using Beholder Mage/Sublime Chord). the problem is that arcane preparation(feat from CM[or was it CArc?]) doesn't qualify for UM, since UM says 'from a spellbook'. but i guess it would qualify for the advancement. hm. so if you nab wizard to qualify for UM, you can use arcane preparation to make it advance the spontaneous caster of your choice.

Wouldn't a little insanity using Prestige Ranger or Prestige Paladin and Sword of the Arcane Order+Arcane Preparation allow you to qualify for Ultimate Magus and then apply the prepared spellcasting progression to whichever class you advanced with the PrC? It's a 4 level dip but I can see some craziness here... just don't ask me to make an actual build out of it, though the dip would seem to make spellbooks valuable treasures for spontaneous casters using this method.

Eh, pretty sure that goes to the Divine Crusader SotAO Swiftblade, 19/20 BAB and like...19 CL I think?  Mystic Ranger with the right feats can nab 20 BAB/20 CL with arcane 9's.
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Hijax

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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2010, 09:56:53 AM »

Eh, pretty sure that goes to the Divine Crusader SotAO Swiftblade, 19/20 BAB and like...19 CL I think?  Mystic Ranger with the right feats can nab 20 BAB/20 CL with arcane 9's.

maybe... we have yet to see just how much of UM/ND/SC can be incorporated in a gish build
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Re: Nar Demonbinder revisit time
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2010, 03:41:29 PM »
I remember from the old thread a build that entered via Blackguard. Not the most optimal, but an interesting take on things. I feel as though there's an Anima Mage build that could be made, but I'm not really coming up with anything satisfactory that wouldn't be better without the Nar Demonbinder.

Here's PhaedrusXY's blackgaurd build.  Very cool:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg6531#msg6531

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