Author Topic: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.  (Read 23438 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2011, 06:40:31 PM »
@Bauglir: I'm struggling to understand what exactly your argument is. Are you arguing that even if a turn cannot end, and even if the remaining turns in a round cannot be taken, that the actual Round will end after the "finite" six seconds? I have several possible counterpoints, but before I know exactly what point you wish to make I don't want to just vomit them all over the place.

bkdubs, There's no plausibility to what you posed unless the time spent rolling effects the world somehow.

Well, I can't explain it any more fully. If you can't grasp how denying the rest of the universe actions, presents a clear and tangible effect on the game world, then we have nothing to discuss.

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Timehopping passed the rolling wouldn't result in some weird alternative timestream universe like you posted at the top of page 3.

Well, you are Time Hopping past the point when Time itself ceased to be. But, note, that was me attempting to be cute and/or pedantic.

McPoyo

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2011, 06:52:01 PM »
And your last statement was what I was complaining about. "Cute" pedantry is annoying, dumb, and often completely and wholly wrong.

Either it has an effect -so everyone is dieing of old age and crops are withering in the fields waiting for damage resolution or stuck frozen in time for that round only and everything else keeps going - or it doesn't, in which case there is no time stop-like "effect" happening. What happens for mechanical resolution has no effect on the game world. Time never "ceases" to be.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2011, 07:06:08 PM »
Also, it is canonical that there are an infinite number of planes and an infinite number of creatures on those planes.

Each round already requires an infinite number of dice to be rolled for it to conclude.
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McPoyo

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2011, 07:14:30 PM »
According to the DMG, some of them have time that even flows in reverse.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2011, 07:20:18 PM »
Also, it is canonical that there are an infinite number of planes and an infinite number of creatures on those planes.

Each round already requires an infinite number of dice to be rolled for it to conclude.

Well, that would be more accurately described as an infinite number of rounds occurring and resolving simultaneously and independently of one another. Which makes sense and basically thoroughly defeats my point (kinda). It's still a local time stop effect, because for anyone in the encounter with, or attempting to enter then encounter, the Crusader is unable to act. Wow, poor wording. Anyone in the encounter with the Crusader, or attempting to enter the encounter, is unable to act.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 07:23:35 PM by bkdubs123 »

McPoyo

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2011, 08:00:33 PM »
That seems to imply the rest of the world would go on without them, a la final fantasy battle style.

Also, not more accurate for infinite rounds resolving independently, as those infinite planes are all tied together because the time signatures of those planes are in sync, regardless of time flow rate.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2011, 08:41:28 PM »
That seems to imply the rest of the world would go on without them, a la final fantasy battle style.

The rest of the world, yes, aside from anyone involved in the Crusader/Deathless Frenzy encounter. So, like I conceded, no not a Universal Time Stop, but still a local one nonetheless.

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Also, not more accurate for infinite rounds resolving independently, as those infinite planes are all tied together because the time signatures of those planes are in sync, regardless of time flow rate.

I'm not sure what you're saying in the second part of that quote, but in the first part, yes, it would be more accurate to describe the actions occurring throughout the infinite multiverse as an infinite number of distinct rounds occurring and resolving independently. Unless of course you are now attempting to argue that all actions take place during one mega encounter than spans all time and space, and that every action happening anywhere, anywhen was/is/will happen in the same round.

Any normal round only considers a finite number of dice rolls within the confines of its length and breadth of time. That there are an infinite number of rounds taking place at the same time doesn't change the fact that if, perhaps because of an infinite dice rolling loop, one round cannot be completed the encounter which contains that round is frozen in time. That encounter is frozen, but everything outside of that encounter continues to pass through time as normal (which can be reversed, or accelerated, or what-have-you as the case may be).

Bauglir

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2011, 08:42:35 PM »
@Bauglir: I'm struggling to understand what exactly your argument is. Are you arguing that even if a turn cannot end, and even if the remaining turns in a round cannot be taken, that the actual Round will end after the "finite" six seconds? I have several possible counterpoints, but before I know exactly what point you wish to make I don't want to just vomit them all over the place.

Well, we seem to have come to a conclusion anyway, but my point is that the turn MUST end within 6 seconds (from the perspective of creatures in-game), by the rules. Therefore, any extrapolation which leads to that not happening can't be valid. You could argue that the 6 seconds are just "taking longer", as little sense as that makes, but it would make as little as no difference to the creatures in the game. It's not like they perceive any sort of metatime or whatever you'd have to make a necessity for that to happen; they perceive only the 6 seconds that pass, since their thought processes and so on proceed at a rate dependent on that rate of time flow. Even if you argue that rolling dice represents an actual event in game (a premise I don't accept), you just have infinitely many of them in a finite period of time, rather than finitely many per unit time for an infinite time.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2011, 09:08:12 PM »
@Bauglir: I'm struggling to understand what exactly your argument is. Are you arguing that even if a turn cannot end, and even if the remaining turns in a round cannot be taken, that the actual Round will end after the "finite" six seconds? I have several possible counterpoints, but before I know exactly what point you wish to make I don't want to just vomit them all over the place.

Well, we seem to have come to a conclusion anyway, but my point is that the turn MUST end within 6 seconds (from the perspective of creatures in-game), by the rules.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. And I agree with you. From the perspective of creatures in play, everything that happens in a round happens in "roughly 6 seconds." But what I'm saying is that those 6 seconds, from the perspective of creatures in the Crusader/Deathless Frenzy encounter, never finish. They get X seconds in, where X is some integer <6, and then they perceive nothing. Because, for them, Time has stopped. It has ceased to exist.

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Therefore, any extrapolation which leads to that not happening can't be valid. You could argue that the 6 seconds are just "taking longer", as little sense as that makes, but it would make as little as no difference to the creatures in the game. It's not like they perceive any sort of metatime or whatever you'd have to make a necessity for that to happen; they perceive only the 6 seconds that pass, since their thought processes and so on proceed at a rate dependent on that rate of time flow.

I'm not saying that the round takes any arbitrarily longer amount of time to resolve. I'm saying it doesn't resolve. A round may well be roughly 6 seconds, but this particular round simply never gets that far. The 6 seconds, do not pass for the creatures in the encounter. Not until the Crusader completes his turn. IF the Crusader did ever decide to complete his turn, then 6 seconds, and no more than 6 seconds, would have gone by (for those in the encounter and for those without; nobody gets "bonus" time because of the Crusader's arbitrarily large number of dice rolls).

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Even if you argue that rolling dice represents an actual event in game (a premise I don't accept), you just have infinitely many of them in a finite period of time, rather than finitely many per unit time for an infinite time.

I agree that the rolling of an infinite number of damage dice does not represent any actual event in the game world. My argument has simply been that the Crusader can choose to freeze time because he can, by choosing to roll his damage dice infinitely, allow his turn to continue indefinitely and thus never allow any other turn to begin. This is due to wording kinks and subsequent abuse as well as applied rules as written.

Explain that "in-game" however you want (as much as that makes sense when talking about a concept that is theoretical optimization and thus by definition will never happen in an actual game), but as DMs we are supposed to create flavor/fluff to explain why the rules as written work for our worlds, rather than create house rules so that our worlds' flavor/fluff works, are we not?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2011, 10:09:48 PM »
From the perspective of the characters in game, his turn doesn't continue indefinitely.  Nobody notices dice rolls (or turns for that matter, since everything in a round is "really" happening simultaneously).

From the perspectives of the players out of game, you can accomplish meta-tasks, and thus the turn doesn't continue indefinitely.
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axenome1

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2011, 12:20:18 AM »
Actually, a d1 is technically a die, true? Just with one possible result. Picture a brownie (size tiny) running around with a gauntlet (medium damage d3, reduced 2 size categories to d1) running around under magical invisibility with ranks and gear towards hide, maybe amulet of nondetection, ways to get around being noticed. People start exploding at random, gates destroyed, chaos across the city...
I think I have a new adventure hook.
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bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2011, 12:26:55 AM »
From the perspective of the characters in game, his turn doesn't continue indefinitely.  Nobody notices dice rolls (or turns for that matter, since everything in a round is "really" happening simultaneously).

From the perspectives of the players out of game, you can accomplish meta-tasks, and thus the turn doesn't continue indefinitely.

Nobody notices not being able to take turns? What are these "meta-tasks" you're talking about now? Thinking and speaking? How do these meta-tasks stop the Crusader's turn from continuing indefinitely?

Bozwevial

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2011, 12:27:05 AM »
The weapon damage tables don't list that as 1d1, they just list it as a flat 1, meaning no dice are rolled.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2011, 12:39:18 AM »

Nobody notices not being able to take turns?
Since turns are a purely metagame concept, yes.  From the perspective of the characters in the world there is no inability to take turns.  There are no dice rolled.  There are no hit points.  There are no turns.

Quote
What are these "meta-tasks" you're talking about now?
Summing an infinite series, for instance.
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bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2011, 01:25:11 AM »

Nobody notices not being able to take turns?
Since turns are a purely metagame concept, yes.  From the perspective of the characters in the world there is no inability to take turns.  There are no dice rolled.  There are no hit points.  There are no turns.

Quote
What are these "meta-tasks" you're talking about now?
Summing an infinite series, for instance.

:rollseyes

Okay, well, I guess since, "from the perspective of the characters in the world there is no inability to take turns" I guess none of my characters perceive the effects of being Dazed or Stunned or Paralyzed, etc.

By definition an infinite series can't be summed. If it could be it wouldn't be infinite.

But whatever.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2011, 01:32:09 AM »

Okay, well, I guess since, "from the perspective of the characters in the world there is no inability to take turns" I guess none of my characters perceive the effects of being Dazed or Stunned or Paralyzed, etc.
They certainly don't say "oh look the wizard just moved now I can move and after I do the orc will move."  They also don't say "oh wow the GM is sure rolling a lot of dice behind his screen".


By definition an infinite series can't be summed. If it could be it wouldn't be infinite.
Your mathematical knowledge is roughly... 2501 years out of date.
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Bauglir

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2011, 02:03:58 AM »
To be more helpful, yes, they can. For instance, the sequence 1/2+1/4+1/8...+1/(2^n) = 1. Infinite number of values added together to make a finite number.

EDIT: That sequence equals 1 after an infinite number of iterations, technically, rather than in the form I wrote it above. I'm tired and it's been 3 and a half years since my last calc class.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 02:08:08 AM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

bkdubs123

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2011, 02:26:32 AM »
Your mathematical knowledge is roughly... 2501 years out of date.

Wow, I didn't realize we were going to bring calculus to the D&D table. Theoretically I suppose you might rule that the Crusader, to no appreciable effect, deals his damage in the form of a function, rather than an integer, since infinity can't be expressed as an integer, BUT at that point you'd almost certainly be in house rule territory.

To be more helpful, yes, they can. For instance, the sequence 1/2+1/4+1/8...+1/(2^n) = 1. Infinite number of values added together to make a finite number.

EDIT: That sequence equals 1 after an infinite number of iterations, technically, rather than in the form I wrote it above. I'm tired and it's been 3 and a half years since my last calc class.

I never went far enough in mathematics to get into these types of problems, so I'm no expert, but as I have understood the above example, the infinite series doesn't ever actually equal anything. It comes close to equalling 1, but as horse shoes and hand grenades have taught us, close doesn't count in this example.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 02:40:29 AM by bkdubs123 »

skydragonknight

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2011, 04:16:03 AM »
So your argument is that the d2 Crusader's player can continue to roll the dice at the game table until he or the Frenzied Berserker's player dies of old age and that because there is no specific rule for time limits on a round, any arbitrary limit (such as one game session) placed by a DM counts as a "Magic Tea Party".

...are we playing the same game?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2011, 04:57:05 AM »
OK, so you don't understand basic calculus.  In that case, no offense, but you aren't really qualified to be talking about infinities.
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