Author Topic: Most Overrated PrCs  (Read 22007 times)

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Dragonamedrake

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2010, 08:27:34 AM »
[off topic]

Lets take away the crazy multi-dipping, and many of the OMFG-PrCs become only "good".
Take away crazy multi-dipping, and all you're left with are a handful of PrCs worth taking, and by extension, character builds.
...
Dipping is all fine and dandy and needed with some builds I suppose... but if you start building characters with 7 or more classes in the span of 20 lvls its starting to just become silly. Who really plays a character like that... what sane DM allows that lol. And I know I know... this is just an OP board and most of these builds are just a mental exercise but lets not get hasty and start looking down on builds that focus on one or two Prestige classes. You can still optimize without dipping.
...

It's really a question of design and game philosophy.  I tend to think of a character idea, often something I want the character to do, concept, etc., and then go to try and build them.  Often, this doesn't match up w/ what some random writer happened to have thought to include in a book.  Or, alternatively, the classes they've come up w/ suck (viz. the aforementioned Mindbender, various archer PrCs).  Hence, the dipping. 

I also think of classes as game artifacts, just like attack bonuses, etc.  Warrior is a profession, not a character class, and characters in the narrative don't peak at your build stub.  So, whether you have Warblade 15 or some mix of a dozen different dips doesn't necessarily make a difference.

I know those feelings can be a bit contentious, I've seen them drive some people apoplectic.  But, that's how my gaming group rolls and it works for us.  The one thing I will say in defense of approaching it this way is that otherwise you're left w/ those concepts that the game designers happened to think of and design well.

[/off topic]

[off topic]

I can see your point. Sometimes a few dips here or there can help to create a unique concept but... This is an OP board and I only see a handful of people request a build built around a character concept (but those are usually the most interesting). I have no problem with that. I just have noticed a trend towards outlandish dipping (I atribute most of it to the lack of new 3.5 material). Nothing wrong with it untill all of a sudden you got people believing you cant optimize a base class or a single prestige class.

Take for instance the following. I didnt even have to search... it was on the first page lol

no, this post has nothing to do with factotums. instead, it abuses the master spellthief feat.

build:
[spoiler]build:   bard1/wiz2/spellthief1/trapsmith1/assasin1/UM3/sublime chord2/UM+5/mindbender1/UM+2
race:   human   alignment: any non-good non-lawful
ACFs:   martial wizard

lvl:    class:          feats:
lvl1   bard1        able learner; melodic casting;
lvl2   wizard1        improved initative;
lvl3   wizard2     extend spell;
lvl4   wizard3      
lvl5   spellthief1   
lvl6   trapsmith1     master spellthief;
lvl7   assasin1   
lvl8   ult magus1                    +bard;
lvl9   ult magus2     PS*(trapsmith);      +wizard and trapsmith;
lvl10   ult magus3                    +wizard and trapsmith;
lvl11   sublime chord1            
lvl12   sublime chord2   persist spell;   
lvl13   ult magus4                    +sublime chord;
lvl14   ult magus5   sculpt spell;      +sublime chord and trapsmith;
lvl15   ult magus6   PS*(sublime chord);   +sublime chord and trapsmith;
lvl16   ult magus7                    +sublime chord;
lvl17   ult magus8                    +sublime chord and assasin;
lvl18   mindbender1**   mindsight**;   +sublime chord;
lvl19   ult magus9     invisible spell;      +sublime chord and assasin;
lvl20   ult magus10            +sublime chord and bard(or any other, really);
*practiced spellcaster: can be dropped for other feats if needed.
**one of the options. others include touchstone+sandshaper, combat casting+abjurant champion, or co-op
spell+guildmage.  hell, ever +1 level of assasin+ability focus would work, giving +3 to the death attack
DC and fourth level assasin spells. an other option is beguiler+PS(beguiler), for +8 to CL. or, even
better, bump it forward, shuffle feats for spring attack, and grab a level of telf shadowlord... screw the
assasin and wiz casting, advance shadowlord!
[/spoiler]
caster levels:
[spoiler]
spells known caster levels:   pre master spellthief CL
bard:              3      6
assasin:           3      7
trapsmith:           5      13
wizard:      5      10
sublime chord:   10      21
spellthief:           0      5

total CL for all spells:   62
+ maxed song of arc power:   82
[/spoiler]

fun tactics:
[spoiler]
casting in light armor (cause we can)
persist cloud of knives (each one has +82 to hit)
abuse fire shuriken   (makes 22 per casting, 28 with song)
abuse explosive runes (cause everyone else does)
wings of flurry(82d6)
maw of chaos (82d6 for eight minutes)
persisted shield (because we can, thats why)
persisted invisible spell obscuring mist (to screw with people who use true seeing)
chained(rod) hour/level buffs, lasting more than three days.
improvisation, gain 186 improv points, up to +41 on any skill check.... hahahahaha[/spoiler]

so, what else can we do with this abuse?  :D


bard1/wiz2/spellthief1/trapsmith1/assasin1/UM3/sublime chord2/UM+5/mindbender1/UM+2

8... 8 classes and most with only 1 or 2 levels taken. How could you POSSIBLY build a concept around something like this.

Here is a go at it....

Garble the Confused started out his life like any bard...
Untill one day he started adventuring and soon found a true love for the arcane...
followed soon after by a need to be more stealty and shifty...
which soon got forgotten in his new found love of Traps...
which lead him to want to kill people for money...
which lead him to become bent on learning spells and spontaniously struming them on a lute at the same time!...
but that all didnt last long and he decided to return to his love for sublime(hehe) music and magic...
This all made Garble very confused so he decided to try being the ULTIMATE MAGUS...
this time he stuck it out for some time but ultimatly (hehe) decided he wanted to master the arts of MINDCONTROLL...
but after much thought(hehe)... came to the realization that no he really wanted to become the ULTIMATE MAGUS.

Garble the Confused lead an exciting life of adventure... and because of his multitude of special abilities had very little challenge in life... this was a good thing because after about the 5th life altering choice he made... causing him to have to seek out yet another trainer of some strange specialized training... his party got fed up and left him.

THE END

Wow what a great character concept.

Well I hope I dont come off like a jerk but sometimes these builds just make me shake my head in wonder...

A. That whoever made it was that smart(cause this obviously took time, effort, and alot of skill to create) and
B. Who would ever let someone change that often with a straight face.

End rant.

[/OFF TOPIC]

JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2010, 09:26:39 AM »
Easier than that:  Garble the dilletant was a skillfull fellow with a talent for magic.  He used it.

There's no need to go farther than that.  Each of the class levels can easily be explained as unlocking ever greater magical skill.

JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2010, 09:28:03 AM »
According to the US Department of Labor, the average American changes his or her job 3-5 times during his or her lifetime. Is it really so far-fetched?

Also, what Jaron said.

Agita

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2010, 10:08:35 AM »
Wait, wasn't there a debate like this some time ago? Oh, right.

On a related note: I'm currently playing a Magic-Blooded Unseelie Fey Draconic Incarnate Warforged Marshal/Paladin//Sorcerer/Hearfire Fanner/Mythic Exemplar. The DM let me do it only because he liked the concept I gave him. :P
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 12:34:59 PM by Agita »
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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2010, 11:21:58 AM »
... Ah. Sorry if I offended.  :embarrassed
no prob -- your post just happened to be the proverbial straw that day (there are certain idiosyncrasies on theses boards that drive me up a wall -- don't take it personal).

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2010, 12:20:30 PM »
People seem to have this inability to see character levels as anything but character levels. My roommate/DM is this way, and he can't see a barbarian1/fighter2/swordsage1/crusader2/warblade2/crusader2 as anything but a barbarian1/fighter2/swordsage1/crusader2/warblade2/crusader2, where I see it as a martial genius who trains himself in the arts of warfare and wants to get REALLY good at killing things.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2010, 12:29:32 PM »
People seem to have this inability to see character levels as anything but character levels. My roommate/DM is this way, and he can't see a barbarian1/fighter2/swordsage1/crusader2/warblade2/crusader2 as anything but a barbarian1/fighter2/swordsage1/crusader2/warblade2/crusader2, where I see it as a martial genius who trains himself in the arts of warfare and wants to get REALLY good at killing things.
This was discussed in Agita's link. Basically, it's OD&D thinking from a time when race equaled class, and you were completely shoe-horned into your role by whichever one you picked. It is an idea that has far outlived its time. Modern D&D isn't classless, but it has more in common with games that are than it does with OD&D in some ways. The people who are so hung up on the idea of "class = character identity" should try playing a truly classless game a couple of times to get the idea out of their heads. Heck, you could even try converting your favorite D&D setting into a classless system like Mutants and Masterminds, or GURPS.

There is nothing wrong with heavy multiclassing in D&D, and in fact it should be encouraged as it generally strengthens the characters that need it most (basic melee), and isn't actually all that useful for those that are already at the top of the power curve (casters).
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Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2010, 12:47:27 PM »
[spoiler]

no, this post has nothing to do with factotums. instead, it abuses the master spellthief feat.

build:
[spoiler]build:   bard1/wiz2/spellthief1/trapsmith1/assasin1/UM3/sublime chord2/UM+5/mindbender1/UM+2
race:   human   alignment: any non-good non-lawful
ACFs:   martial wizard

lvl:    class:          feats:
lvl1   bard1        able learner; melodic casting;
lvl2   wizard1        improved initative;
lvl3   wizard2     extend spell;
lvl4   wizard3      
lvl5   spellthief1   
lvl6   trapsmith1     master spellthief;
lvl7   assasin1   
lvl8   ult magus1                    +bard;
lvl9   ult magus2     PS*(trapsmith);      +wizard and trapsmith;
lvl10   ult magus3                    +wizard and trapsmith;
lvl11   sublime chord1            
lvl12   sublime chord2   persist spell;   
lvl13   ult magus4                    +sublime chord;
lvl14   ult magus5   sculpt spell;      +sublime chord and trapsmith;
lvl15   ult magus6   PS*(sublime chord);   +sublime chord and trapsmith;
lvl16   ult magus7                    +sublime chord;
lvl17   ult magus8                    +sublime chord and assasin;
lvl18   mindbender1**   mindsight**;   +sublime chord;
lvl19   ult magus9     invisible spell;      +sublime chord and assasin;
lvl20   ult magus10            +sublime chord and bard(or any other, really);
*practiced spellcaster: can be dropped for other feats if needed.
**one of the options. others include touchstone+sandshaper, combat casting+abjurant champion, or co-op
spell+guildmage.  hell, ever +1 level of assasin+ability focus would work, giving +3 to the death attack
DC and fourth level assasin spells. an other option is beguiler+PS(beguiler), for +8 to CL. or, even
better, bump it forward, shuffle feats for spring attack, and grab a level of telf shadowlord... screw the
assasin and wiz casting, advance shadowlord!
[/spoiler]
caster levels:
[spoiler]
spells known caster levels:   pre master spellthief CL
bard:              3      6
assasin:           3      7
trapsmith:           5      13
wizard:      5      10
sublime chord:   10      21
spellthief:           0      5

total CL for all spells:   62
+ maxed song of arc power:   82
[/spoiler]

fun tactics:
[spoiler]
casting in light armor (cause we can)
persist cloud of knives (each one has +82 to hit)
abuse fire shuriken   (makes 22 per casting, 28 with song)
abuse explosive runes (cause everyone else does)
wings of flurry(82d6)
maw of chaos (82d6 for eight minutes)
persisted shield (because we can, thats why)
persisted invisible spell obscuring mist (to screw with people who use true seeing)
chained(rod) hour/level buffs, lasting more than three days.
improvisation, gain 186 improv points, up to +41 on any skill check.... hahahahaha[/spoiler]

so, what else can we do with this abuse?  :D


bard1/wiz2/spellthief1/trapsmith1/assasin1/UM3/sublime chord2/UM+5/mindbender1/UM+2

8... 8 classes and most with only 1 or 2 levels taken. How could you POSSIBLY build a concept around something like this.

Here is a go at it....

Garble the Confused started out his life like any bard...
Untill one day he started adventuring and soon found a true love for the arcane...
followed soon after by a need to be more stealty and shifty...
which soon got forgotten in his new found love of Traps...
which lead him to want to kill people for money...
which lead him to become bent on learning spells and spontaniously struming them on a lute at the same time!...
but that all didnt last long and he decided to return to his love for sublime(hehe) music and magic...
This all made Garble very confused so he decided to try being the ULTIMATE MAGUS...
this time he stuck it out for some time but ultimatly (hehe) decided he wanted to master the arts of MINDCONTROLL...
but after much thought(hehe)... came to the realization that no he really wanted to become the ULTIMATE MAGUS.

Garble the Confused lead an exciting life of adventure... and because of his multitude of special abilities had very little challenge in life... this was a good thing because after about the 5th life altering choice he made... causing him to have to seek out yet another trainer of some strange specialized training... his party got fed up and left him.

THE END

Wow what a great character concept.

Well I hope I dont come off like a jerk but sometimes these builds just make me shake my head in wonder...

A. That whoever made it was that smart(cause this obviously took time, effort, and alot of skill to create) and
B. Who would ever let someone change that often with a straight face.

End rant.

[/OFF TOPIC]
[/spoiler]

well excuse me for liking builds that multiclass into everything  :lmao

to be honest, all my characters look like that. I'm also currently playing a swordsage/factotum/chameleon with shape soulmeld(planar ward) in a PBP, who happens to be a forgery specialist. hard to explain without getting a bit convoluted. but really, it makes for entertaining characters.

as for the true arcane dilettante, you explain it thusly: bardy Mcspellpower was a bard who wants to blend song and spell to make the ultimate spellcraft. his journey was/is a long one, forcing him to explore several different paths and the obscure spells each learns. only by mastering all walks of magic, could he hope to accomplish his goals.

as for the assassin and trapsmith levels, they allow you to play this guy like James Bard.  the mindsight really helps with, well, everything.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2010, 12:56:01 PM »
Heavy multi-classing gets even easier when you ignore Fluff As Written. Which I wholly support. Battledancers don't need to be former slaves. Drunken Masters don't need to drink. Bladesingers don't need to be gay elves.

I think I take this further then most people though.

ZeroSpace

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2010, 01:49:04 PM »
Heavy multi-classing gets even easier when you ignore Fluff As Written. Which I wholly support. Battledancers don't need to be former slaves. Drunken Masters don't need to drink. Bladesingers don't need to be gay elves.

I think I take this further then most people though.

This made me laugh, good sir, and I approve.
YAY! I get to go to the SPECIAL hell!

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Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2010, 01:51:43 PM »

Drunken Masters don't need to drink
....bwuh?
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snakeman830

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2010, 02:36:27 PM »

Drunken Masters don't need to drink
....bwuh?
They do if they want to use three of their class features.  Drink Like a Demon, For Medicinal Purposes, and Breath of Flame all require drinking to use.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2010, 03:37:22 PM »
Heavy multi-classing gets even easier when you ignore Fluff As Written. Which I wholly support. Battledancers don't need to be former slaves. Drunken Masters don't need to drink. Bladesingers don't need to be gay elves.

I think I take this further then most people though.
They don't have to be elves, but that doesn't mean they CAN'T be gay, right?

...Now I wanna be a bladesinger.  :bigeye
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Agita's awesome poster collection.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2010, 03:50:27 PM »

Drunken Masters don't need to drink
....bwuh?

Why does the drunken master class have to be based around getting drunk? why can't it be spinach?

change the color of abilities, change what they look like, but don't touch the mechanics.

@Lycan,  :clap

ZeroSpace

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2010, 03:55:11 PM »
Making the firebreathing of Drunken Master is a touch harder to explain when you eat spinach. I can see it with drinking beer, but how does spinach let you breath fire? Now if it were munching chili peppers...
YAY! I get to go to the SPECIAL hell!

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"Alright men, time to break out the greatswords!"

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2010, 03:56:09 PM »

Drunken Masters don't need to drink
....bwuh?

Why does the drunken master class have to be based around getting drunk? why can't it be spinach?

change the color of abilities, change what they look like, but don't touch the mechanics.
Holy crap dude. Now I totally want to play a drunken master popeye!

Making the firebreathing of Drunken Master is a touch harder to explain when you eat spinach. I can see it with drinking beer, but how does spinach let you breath fire? Now if it were munching chili peppers...
Beer makes you breathe fire? I'd suggest changing brands...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Agita

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2010, 03:58:35 PM »
Beer makes you breathe fire? I'd suggest changing brands...
Nonsense. Breathing fire is awesome.
What brand do you drink?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 04:03:00 PM by Agita »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2010, 03:59:16 PM »
Making the firebreathing of Drunken Master is a touch harder to explain when you eat spinach. I can see it with drinking beer, but how does spinach let you breath fire? Now if it were munching chili peppers...

Bad breath. and you pretend like it doesn't deal fire damage.
elemental damage is one of the thorns in the system

Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2010, 04:09:25 PM »
they make a hydrogen beer in japan famed for two abilities: making your voice lighter, and allowing you to belch fireballs if you have an ignition source(they normally use ciggarettes). these two are often combined into karaoke contests that also judge on the quality of fireballs.

it should come as no suprise to anyone that I found out about this because it featured in the Darwin Awards.
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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2010, 04:15:31 PM »
The hydrogen beer thing is an urban legend.


Bob the Mad started out his life like any accountant
Untill one day he started adventuring and soon found a true love for the arcane...
but soon he realized that he needed to be stealthier if he wanted to get anywhere with his adventures...
so he decided to learn how to use traps...
which lead him to want to kill people for money...
which lead him to become bent on learning spells and spontaniously struming them on a lute at the same time!...
but that all didnt last long and he decided to return to his love for sublime(hehe) music and magic...
This all made Garble very confused so he decided to try being the ULTIMATE MAGUS...
this time he stuck it out for some time but ultimatly (hehe) decided he wanted to master the arts of MIND CONTROL...
but after much thought(hehe)... came to the realization that no he really wanted to become the ULTIMATE MAGUS....
until he decided that he'd rather adventure by travelling between dimensions, robbing the demons of their valuable treasures.
Soon, though, he realize that it would take hundreds of years to pay off his debts in the afterlife, and frantically decided to research necromancy
Before anyone knew it he was calling himself the Dread Necromancer and raising an army of the undead
But then a paladin came by and indoctrinated him with his racist, undead-hating ways, forcing the wizard to join the church of Pelor and destroy his army.
He then lived out the rest of his life playing darts in Sigil.

Character Build:
Quote
Wizard 20.  Take Craft Wondrous item at level 3, lots of enchantment spells at levels 12-15 and necromancy 16-18.  Love of music is just flavor.  And nobody in the game really knows class names.


What?  
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.