Author Topic: Most Overrated PrCs  (Read 21902 times)

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Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2010, 04:39:09 PM »
The hydrogen beer thing is an urban legend.


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Wizard 20.  Take Craft Wondrous item at level 3, lots of enchantment spells at levels 12-15 and necromancy 16-18.  Love of music is just flavor.  And nobody in the game really knows class names.


What?  

eh, guess I fell for it then. makes sense though, I can't quite figure out how you would go about filling beer with that much hydrogen anyways. 

as for flavor, yeah.... it can vary alot.
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Dragonamedrake

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2010, 05:44:07 PM »
People seem to have this inability to see character levels as anything but character levels. My roommate/DM is this way, and he can't see a barbarian1/fighter2/swordsage1/crusader2/warblade2/crusader2 as anything but a barbarian1/fighter2/swordsage1/crusader2/warblade2/crusader2, where I see it as a martial genius who trains himself in the arts of warfare and wants to get REALLY good at killing things.
This was discussed in Agita's link. Basically, it's OD&D thinking from a time when race equaled class, and you were completely shoe-horned into your role by whichever one you picked. It is an idea that has far outlived its time. Modern D&D isn't classless, but it has more in common with games that are than it does with OD&D in some ways. The people who are so hung up on the idea of "class = character identity" should try playing a truly classless game a couple of times to get the idea out of their heads. Heck, you could even try converting your favorite D&D setting into a classless system like Mutants and Masterminds, or GURPS.

There is nothing wrong with heavy multiclassing in D&D, and in fact it should be encouraged as it generally strengthens the characters that need it most (basic melee), and isn't actually all that useful for those that are already at the top of the power curve (casters).


Your probably right. Im an Old school DnD player who trys to stick at least somewhat to a small amount of classes. And I have played Mutants and Masterminds... hell I have the books. I disagree to the extent that I dont think its the better way... but maybe its not as bad as I originally believed. Anyways I didnt mean to derail the thread so I will just say I guess Im an old fart that hasnt moved on. However I play with a bunch of old farts so I guess thats ok lol.


well excuse me for liking builds that multiclass into everything  :lmao

to be honest, all my characters look like that. I'm also currently playing a swordsage/factotum/chameleon with shape soulmeld(planar ward) in a PBP, who happens to be a forgery specialist. hard to explain without getting a bit convoluted. but really, it makes for entertaining characters.

as for the true arcane dilettante, you explain it thusly: bardy Mcspellpower was a bard who wants to blend song and spell to make the ultimate spellcraft. his journey was/is a long one, forcing him to explore several different paths and the obscure spells each learns. only by mastering all walks of magic, could he hope to accomplish his goals.

as for the assassin and trapsmith levels, they allow you to play this guy like James Bard.  the mindsight really helps with, well, everything.

I dont mean to offend. If fact just the opposite. You and alot of the regular posters on this board make some amazing builds... things I honestly would never have thought up. You where just the first build on the first page I found lol. I might not post regularly but I usually check the OP board every day. I use alot of these builds as either NPCs or as a spring board to come up with a character for a new game. Keep posting up these builds please lol. I enjoy all of em.

Anyways I will leave it at that and sorry to the oringinal poster again. I will leave you guys to it. Good Luck

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2010, 06:50:04 PM »
I don't think you offended anyone. It's not like we haven't heard that before. Hell, someone posted basically the same thing in the thread I started just to collect builds that I'd made... I do believe that that kind of restrictive thinking really has nothing to do with modern D&D, though. The rules don't have any restrictions on heavy multiclassing because the designers/authors didn't see anything wrong with it. Hell, as front-loaded as the classes are, it seems like they almost encouraged it by design intent (but I wouldn't give them that much credit...).

Contrast that with the fact that most casters lose almost nothing at all by staying simple. Wizard 20 is more powerful than any core non-casting character that anyone could possibly ever build, no matter how much they multiclassed. There are also examples of heavily multiclassed NPCs in at least Dragon Magazine (I mean as crazy as you'll ever see here, with no more than 1 or two levels in any class). So yeah... it really is a purely psychological holdover from an older version of the game. I'm no youngster myself either, so don't take it personally, though. ;) Just don't kid yourself that you're limiting power-gamers by restricting how many classes they can take or anything. You're not. Druid 20 will stomp any XYZ kind of kludged together build. You're basically just penalizing non-casters even more than they already are.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 06:57:16 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2010, 08:26:47 PM »
don't worry, I didn't take offense at that.    :D

incidentally, I made an abjurer progression the other day... it went abjurer3/master specialist3/geometer3/IotSV7/abj champ4

yay for +20 base will save at level 20.
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Akalsaris

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2010, 12:34:17 AM »
Yeah - I don't think anyone was upset at you Dragonamedrake.  People just get defensive about limiting CO options and RP vs Rollplay and whatnot around here. 

If it's any consolation, I agree with you a bit.  My favorite CO builds are the ones that have 2-4 classes or prestige classes, like Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 or Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5.  I've made my share of crazy dip builds as well (hell, look at the work I've done for the cleric dip handbook), but when it comes down to it, there's something to be said for the simpler builds. 

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2010, 12:49:24 AM »
There are a lot of classes that really need another class to give them enough of a boost to become ~T3 (which is where classes ought to be, IMO), such as scout for ranger, and psychic warrior for monks.

Systems specifically designed for multiclassing well (ToB, Incarnum) also point to the idea that perhaps multiclassing isn't The Devil after all.
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snakeman830

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2010, 12:51:57 AM »
Then there are Illumians which are a race that's designed to multiclass well, and in fact are called out as frequently doing so in the fluff!
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2010, 12:52:48 AM »
here are also examples of heavily multiclassed NPCs in at least Dragon Magazine (I mean as crazy as you'll ever see here, with no more than 1 or two levels in any class). So yeah... it really is a purely psychological holdover from an older version of the game. I'm no youngster myself either, so don't take it personally, though. ;)

Human Barbarian 2/Cleric 1/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Sorceorer 4/Assasin 1/Shadow Dancer 2

 :D

Also, this topic got pretty derailed.


Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2010, 01:01:53 AM »
here are also examples of heavily multiclassed NPCs in at least Dragon Magazine (I mean as crazy as you'll ever see here, with no more than 1 or two levels in any class). So yeah... it really is a purely psychological holdover from an older version of the game. I'm no youngster myself either, so don't take it personally, though. ;)

Human Barbarian 2/Cleric 1/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Sorceorer 4/Assasin 1/Shadow Dancer 2

 :D

Also, this topic got pretty derailed.



you seem to have gotten WotC vomit all over the thread   :lol

seriously, those guys couldn't optimize in their own system to save their lives. paladin2??!? really? on an ASSASSIN? hey, screw dipping for divine grace.... actually, screw class features! yay, two levels of warrior!   :lmao

can we send an emissary down to wizards to show them how to play their own damn system? they seem to have trouble grasping the concepts.
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snakeman830

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2010, 01:05:29 AM »
seriously, those guys couldn't optimize in their own system to save their lives. paladin2??!? really? on an ASSASSIN? hey, screw dipping for divine grace.... actually, screw class features! yay, two levels of warrior!   :lmao
Two levels of warrior with a slightly boosted HD, don't forget :lmao

Quote
can we send an emissary down to wizards to show them how to play their own damn system? they seem to have trouble grasping the concepts.
We might be able to, but they'd shove us off because "3.5 was so last decade.  We're onto 4E now."
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2010, 01:10:40 AM »
I like to think that some of the guys at WotC knew what they were doing. I mean, ToB, Incarnum, Binding... those are all great system. Even psionics is pretty sweet.

But they just didn't understand the magic system. At all.

Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2010, 01:19:03 AM »
"3.5 was so last decade.  We're onto 4E now."
proof they need our help now more than ever.  :D

But they just didn't understand the magic system. At all.

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herp derp freedom of movement is fair right guise? oh, and clerics are weak, give em more free metamagic. also, rick over there figured out how to make wizards catch up to sorcerers! we made the incantatrix class int based. not that many people will use it. it will be a little gimmick for a few players.   hmm, polymorph isn't good enough! I got a great idea for a new ninth level spell to replace it....
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Havok4

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2010, 02:03:09 AM »
Quote from: wizards of the coast
herp derp freedom of movement is fair right guise? oh, and clerics are weak, give em more free metamagic. also, rick over there figured out how to make wizards catch up to sorcerers! we made the incantatrix class int based. not that many people will use it. it will be a little gimmick for a few players.   hmm, polymorph isn't good enough! I got a great idea for a new ninth level spell to replace it....
I honestly cannot fathom the thought process of WotC when it comes to things like that.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2010, 02:19:20 AM »
I honestly cannot fathom the thought process of WotC when it comes to things like that.

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Bauglir

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2010, 02:39:48 AM »
If we're posting absurd builds, I've got one.

Athasian Bard 1/Swashbuckler 1/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1/Holy Liberator 1/Abjurant Champion 1

I was aiming for a Fochlucan Lyrist that advanced Warlock and could finish the class pre-epic. I actually had a pretty good story, too. Primordial Half-Giant, so I was going to have him have been a former (dex-based) slave gladiator who managed to escape, nearly died, saved by a good-aligned green dragon, standard nursed-back to health cliche here, and who then became devoted to a life of freeing other enslaved "monstrous" races, and looked up to his draconic mentor as the ideal role model, as a balance of the oft-opposed aspects of the arcane with nature magic. I wasn't going to finish Abjurant Champion, but who the hell cares, I'd get the quickened abjurations (yay for Shield and Mage Armor, which was houseruled abjuration) before leaving, and have you SEEN the chassis on Fochlucan Lyrist?

On topic, have we talked about the Rainbow Servant yet? Cause, yeah, that one's badass under very specific circumstances, otherwise not so much.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2010, 02:46:21 AM »
The most overrated PrC, in my opinion, is Shadowcraft Mage. Ha. Just kidding. It's worth it just to imagine the look of shock on your face as you read "overrated" and "Shadowcraft Mage" in the same sentence.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2010, 02:50:58 AM »
The most overrated PrC, in my opinion, is Shadowcraft Mage. Ha. Just kidding. It's worth it just to imagine the look of shock on your face as you read "overrated" and "Shadowcraft Mage" in the same sentence.

I always forget just how good it is. I've don't really get how they work, but I see what's talked about. It seems to be up there with the Planar Shepard.

Solo

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2010, 02:57:13 AM »
They create illusions that are % real. If you manipulate things correctly, you can get something more real than actual reality if your enemy disbelieves the spell.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2010, 03:01:02 AM »
More to the point, they can effectively default to every Wizard/Sorcerer spell of the Evocation school and much of Conjuration, without spell components, and it always takes a standard action.  That's awesome.  Then they auto extend all of those.  Tons of other tricks too.

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2010, 03:03:47 AM »
Yeah, I've heard of people throwing Shadow Miracles that are realer then normal Miracles.

That sounds SO cool.