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Dictum Mortuum

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We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« on: February 16, 2010, 10:12:26 AM »
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Takanaki

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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 03:53:45 PM »
Oh, i was aware of that handbook, but i thought it was lost some time ago. Is it back now?
Anyway, anyone wants to participate? I got a lot on my mind nowadays.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 07:06:36 PM »
That was one of those double lost, double found, weird back again thingies.
Anyways ... random thoughts (as usual)

PsyWar with:
(1) ... Tome of Battle stuff hasn't really been done.
(2) ... Ubernoob + carnivore had a dust-up, including a Lock-ish build
(3) ... the two Mind's Eye updates
(4) ... when/if to fit in a recharge set-up
(5) ... i think there've been a couple of good and long threads over here
(6) ... an updated Big Guy build using some of the CPsi stuff
(7) ... something with Search focused on, or Tashalatora
(8) ... Dragon #349 psi-stuff

So yeah, there are some new things to slam together.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 09:51:11 AM »
The Mind's Eye ACF 'mantled warrior' is phenomenal. Not only it's expanded power on crack (and on time, rather than selecting a power 1 level lower than your normal maximum), it gives you the mantle's special ability, which in some cases is great (time mantle).
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awaken DM golem

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 06:45:48 PM »
Boy, it didn't take long for this thread to fizzle, dang.

Yeah, Mantled is waayyy better than Expanded Knowledge, and since this ACF can be PHB2 retrained in, it's just a pick-a-level to do it.
Basically, any old-ish PsyWar build can get 2 to 4 powers from one "feat" this way, that instead of 2 for 2, or 3 for 3, or 4 for 4.
By itself, this is worth it.


KellKheraptis

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2010, 06:57:23 PM »
I've always wondered, for anyone who isn't an ardent, does adding a mantle simply add those powers as powers known?  I.e. getting a mantle on a psion = 7-10 new powers?
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2010, 06:58:32 PM »
Some thoughts on psychic warrior skills:

  • Autohypnosis: Awesome.
  • Climb: Skip.
  • Concentration: 5+ ranks.
  • Craft: Maybe some ranks for alchemy or poisonmaking.
  • Jump: Skip.
  • Knowledge (Psionics): 1 rank.
  • Profession: Seriously, skip.
  • Ride: Swap for tumble.
  • Search: Wtf? Skip.
  • Swim: Skip.

So by keeping concentration, tumble, autohypnosis and craft at respectable amounts is easy, even though skill points per level are low.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2010, 06:59:14 PM »
I've always wondered, for anyone who isn't an ardent, does adding a mantle simply add those powers as powers known?  I.e. getting a mantle on a psion = 7-10 new powers?

I think that they are added to available powers you can choose from, not your known list.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2010, 05:04:16 PM »
KellK - I've intended, against time constraints, to write a Substitute Powers reference thread ... someday.

The Ardent's stuff on the Mind's Eye update goes:
4 Mantles - specifically available to non-Ardents
Sub. Powers - specifically referring to the Mantle, not just the Ardent.

Then the Divine Mind needs to be able to use BOTH of the above, not just to become vaguely useful (Not)
but also to get rid of some dead levels with no powers available. And obviously the Div Mind can't really use 6th+ level powers.
Heck it might not even make it to 20th level ...  ;)

Also, the Psion (which-ever) that gets the Life Mantle as an ACF at level 5, specifically gets the Powers listed.
They could have used the standard phraseology of getting the Mantle, instead they aim toward to powers (!!).
It's not like any Psion really needs to boost, but being specifically restricted to the 8 powers listed, and then Sub in 2 more via Sub Powers.

So, with all that, not very well strung together, a PsyWar could Sub Powers. And should just to get rid of the 7s to 9s it can't really use.

(and I need to edit this massively to have it be reference material  :rollseyes )

awaken DM golem

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2010, 05:08:31 PM »
DM - I mostly agree.

1 rank into Search, minimum.
1 rank into Ride, for the Psycristal Hat trick.
... then swap for Tumble (maybe)
1+1 rank into UMD + UPD after Magic Mantle

Carnivore usually gets to the 5 rank synergy stuff soon after,
but that's a waiting game with a low Int PsyWar.

I'm just suggesting a Trapfinder build could go PsyWar, but it hasn't been done.

Samb

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2010, 04:25:31 PM »
I'll do what I can to add to how ToB can enhance a psywar.
There are many things that prevent a psywar from getting the most out of ToB.  First, psywar has limited skill ranks and limited selection to skills.  Many martial disciplines have a particular weapon and skill check associated with them.  If INT was a dump stat for your build then you will be even more limited. 

Whether or the weapon is needed to initiate the maneuvers or not is not clear but the it does influence you taking advantage of certain class features and feats.  I will assume you don't need a dagger to use shadow hand moves, or a rapier to use diamond mind moves etc, since I have not read you couldn't (I could be wrong), and if that were the case you may become limited to certain builds (ie TWF).  But if you do need said weapon I would say Tiger claw, which has greataxe and jump to be the best fit, since a psywar will likily have jump maxed for leap attack.

Now comes the skills.  I would say Diamond mind is the best fit since concentration is a key skill for a psywar.  Again, this assumes you can use a greatsword to initate the moves.  Another option is tiger claw (already mentioned).  Another way to allay your skill deficits is to use human race with adaptive learning (no cross class skills and extra skill ranks) or taking a PrC with a lot of skill ranks like elocater (gives you balance, hide, tumble but not diplomacy needed for White Raven).  Either option, or both will open up a lot more content for a psywar.  Martial study will make the key skill for that discipline a class skill, yet another way to make solve part of psywars' skill problems (doesn't give you more skill ranks though).

Then there is the option of dipping into a ToB class.  This is an imperfect solution because it only make the skill a class skill for 1-2 levels (depending on how long you stay in said class) but it does allow you to gain ILs and more maneuvers as you advance.  Should be used in conjunction with the solutions listed above.

Elocater was mentioned before as a solution to a Psywar's skill deficit, but it also works great for ToB maneuvers thanks to spring attack.  Using maneuvers means you will not be full attacking, spring attack means you will be making the most of your move actions.  Although elocater doesn't really give you spring attack (spring attack is a prereq for elocater) it comes close.  To make the most of opportunistic strike (up to +6 to attack and damage rolls) , astral construct is highly recommended as well. 

Feats that could benefit a psywar:

Evasive reflexes: take a 5fs instead of AoO.  Great for elocater builds with capricious step allowing for great mobility even when it isn't your turn.

Martial study: already touch upon, gives you a class skill and one maneuver of that discipline.

Psychic renewal: Expend you focus and spend PP=maneuver level to recover a maneuver.  Very, very useful esp if you dip into swordsage of only have martial study.  The main limiting factor to this is Psywar's pathetic PP pool.

Vital recovery: gain HP when you recover a maneuver.  Might see some use with psychic renewal, but in general PSV combo is better for tanks.

Instant clarity:  regain focus after using a maneuver.  Only usable 3/day, but if all you have is one maneuver then the thought that you can spam it 4 times in a row with psychic renewal is very tempting.


tl;dr version:  restrictions on skills and weapons will need to be addressed before a psywar can make full use of ToB.  Once these are addressed ToB can be a welcome addition to any psywar build.

Prime32

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2010, 04:36:39 PM »
Whether or the weapon is needed to initiate the maneuvers or not is not clear but the it does influence you taking advantage of certain class features and feats.  I will assume you don't need a dagger to use shadow hand moves, or a rapier to use diamond mind moves etc, since I have not read you couldn't (I could be wrong), and if that were the case you may become limited to certain builds (ie TWF).  But if you do need said weapon I would say Tiger claw, which has greataxe and jump to be the best fit, since a psywar will likily have jump maxed for leap attack.
There is no such restriction - you can use any weapon to initiate any manouver, though certain things give you bonuses for using discipline weapons.

Quote
Elocater was mentioned before as a solution to a Psywar's skill deficit, but it also works great for ToB maneuvers thanks to spring attack.  Using maneuvers means you will not be full attacking, spring attack means you will be making the most of your move actions.  Although elocater doesn't really give you spring attack (spring attack is a prereq for elocater) it comes close.  To make the most of opportunistic strike (up to +6 to attack and damage rolls) , astral construct is highly recommended as well.
Don't bother with Elocator. Just take Flyby Attack. Play a raptoran or dragonborn - before you get full flight you can emulate it by combining gliding with psionic levitate (thanks to PhaedrusXY for that trick).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 04:38:25 PM by Prime32 »
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Samb

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 05:01:44 PM »
There is no such restriction - you can use any weapon to initiate any manouver, though certain things give you bonuses for using discipline weapons.
that's what I thought, but thanks for the confirmation.

Quote
Don't bother with Elocator. Just take Flyby Attack. Play a raptoran or dragonborn - before you get full flight you can emulate it by combining gliding with psionic levitate (thanks to PhaedrusXY for that trick).
umm elocator helps with skill ranks, adds to attack and damage, and the fact it has sprIng attack compliments with a ToB psywar very well. Compared to fly by attack spring attack is inferior but in context of a psywar's lack of skill elocater offers a lot of solutions (more class skills, more ranks). Opportunist strike is just gravy as well. Take a closer look at elocater.

More OT, some things about psywar that need to addressed.
Lack of PP pool: know all the bonus feats you get?  4-5 of them will be spent on psionc talent. This is like saying a wilder or ardent just gained 4-5 feats because they don't need worry about lack of PP.

No power of level 7-9:  the worst part about this is no temporal accel. And the only way around this UPD or using a mantled variant and using items with powers on the list. 

Brainpiercing

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2010, 08:09:18 PM »
Psywar for starters and the 2 nice bonus feats, then take Crusader or Warblade for 2 levels, and then go over to Ardent at 5 or 6 with Practiced Manifester.

As to lack of PPs:

Technically an infnite buff Psywar works from level 1:

Midnight Talent/Psycarnum Infusion/Improved essentia Cap at level 1 with flaws, or Improved Essentia cap at level 3. Psionic meditation at Psywar 5. At that point you can create 6 PPs every round and manifest a 3 point power and hustle.
Of course, limited powers known makes this just semi-powerful, so you'll have chance of getting this past your DM.
With the right race, however, all you really need is one or two powers.
I'll put forward a Dragonborn Water Orc for this one, since bonus PPs are not your focus, and you couldn't care less about Wis.

Samb

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2010, 09:25:18 PM »
The incarnum trick is not perfect and you still need WIS of 16 to get every power of higher levels. An water Orc would be terrible. Not only do lose PP, you lose your higher level powers which were never that high to begin with.

To emphasis, never ever dump WIS. And do not listen to the above post's advice.

dark_samuari

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2010, 10:04:42 PM »
The incarnum trick is not perfect and you still need WIS of 16 to get every power of higher levels. An water Orc would be terrible. Not only do lose PP, you lose your higher level powers which were never that high to begin with.

To emphasis, never ever dump WIS. And do not listen to the above post's advice.

I believe his remarks were in relation to dipping psychic warrior to gain infinite power points, not for the higher powers.

Brainpiercing

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2010, 05:23:32 AM »
The incarnum trick is not perfect and you still need WIS of 16 to get every power of higher levels. An water Orc would be terrible. Not only do lose PP, you lose your higher level powers which were never that high to begin with.

To emphasis, never ever dump WIS. And do not listen to the above post's advice.
How so? You need Wis 14 at level 10, Wis 15 at level 13 and 16 at level 16. Starting with a 12 base this is more than easy to achieve. On the other hand, the +4 Str and +4 Con will remarkably increase your combat power from level 1.

Look at abilities like this: 19/18/12/12/12/6. (Oh, and these are only mildly min-maxed...)
On the other hand a human: 14/16/14/12/14/8; You might even consider swapping Int and Wis, there.

At level 1, the Dragonborn Water orc can pick up a greatsword or a Glaive and be house, without even a single power point used, while the human will really need the power point cheat, with his likely 1-2 bonus PPs. Of course the Water Orc needs flaws to use that... so, well, YMMV, BUT in any game with flaws that starts early I would take the orc any day.

Quote
I believe his remarks were in relation to dipping psychic warrior to gain infinite power points, not for the higher powers.

Actually I was referring to making a PsyWar with good buffing capabilities at low levels, even level 1. You don't need to be a PsyWar for the Incarnum trick.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 05:29:24 AM by Brainpiercing »

Samb

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Re: We need a Psychic Warrior Handbook
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2010, 07:57:47 AM »

How so? You need Wis 14 at level 10, Wis 15 at level 13 and 16 at level 16. Starting with a 12 base this is more than easy to achieve. On the other hand, the +4 Str and +4 Con will remarkably increase your combat power from level 1.

Look at abilities like this: 19/18/12/12/12/6. (Oh, and these are only mildly min-maxed...)
On the other hand a human: 14/16/14/12/14/8; You might even consider swapping Int and Wis, there.
Using a point buy, you really need 14 as a water orc to achieve what you said.  And having your focus tied up just so you can even manifest powers is IMHO a terrible idea.  You could be using that focus for linked power to buff you, or deal massive damage with PA and deep impact.

Quote
At level 1, the Dragonborn Water orc can pick up a greatsword or a Glaive and be house, without even a single power point used, while the human will really need the power point cheat, with his likely 1-2 bonus PPs. Of course the Water Orc needs flaws to use that... so, well, YMMV, BUT in any game with flaws that starts early I would take the orc any day.

You still haven't sold me.  Water orc might be able to regain focus very early with his good CON and use a PP storage device, but that doesn't change the fact that he can't use his focus for other things, or the fact that regaining focus provokes an AoO.  Even with psionic meditation and hustle you would provoke two AoO (one to manifest hustle and another to regain focus).

And let's not even get started on how pointless physical stats are for psywars in general.  With enough PP and ML, a buff can easily make up for any physical deficiencies.  Linked power could even save time in the process. And let's not even start on what happens when you get metamorphosis.  At that point you will wish you picked an elan or synad with high WIS rather than a beefy and mostly useless water orc.  If you want big and beefy half-giant is a great choice and it doesn't affect your WIS, but a non-psionic race WITH -2 WIS!?  Never ever.

Quote
Psionic meditation at Psywar 5. At that point you can create 6 PPs every round and manifest a 3 point power and hustle.
The underlines part made me  :banghead, how you manifest hustle to regain focus, but you need to use that focus to manifest hustle in first place....... See how relying on Incarnum can work against you?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 08:12:58 AM by Samb »