Author Topic: Will I miss Necromancy?  (Read 4159 times)

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fun_at_funerals

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Will I miss Necromancy?
« on: February 03, 2010, 06:33:45 AM »
I'm playing a Generalist & Spontaneous Diviner Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Wiz 1/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Wiz 4 and I'm about to enter ECL 6 and I need to pick a prohibited school as part of the Incantatrix's Focused Studies class features (or prerequisites, not entirely sure how to classify it).

Now, I was thinking of following the common wisdom of the boards and just banning Evocation but I find that really difficult to do as I'm quite fond of the school and there are several spells that I imagine becoming really useful later on (Contingency, Force Cage, Force Wall, to name a few). But besides those, there are always spells such as a persisted Glorious Master of the Elements and Lightning Ring (which are just awesome with Unluck and a persistent Hunter's Eye) which do give me options in battle when I've layed down all of the necessary battlefield control spells. I was thinking of persisting an Arcane Spellsurge spell in the morining to allow me to make full use of Lightning Ring (2 free action 5d6 lightning attacks), Glorious Master of the Elements blast (10d6 standard action touch attack), and a Channeled Sound Burst (channeled to 2 full rounds) all in a single round for some major blasting incase battlefield control has been completely taken cared of. Note that I intend to share GMotE and LR with my familiar for even more blasting.

So I was considering banning Necromacy since I'll only be banning spells of 4th level onwards and most of the great Necromancy spells are in level 3 down anyway. Since the ban isn't retroactive and I already have Shivering Touch, Specral Hand, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Mass Curse of Impending Blades, Vampiric Touch, Ray of Weakness, False Life anyway, I don't really feel like I'll be losing much. Pluse, we already have a Necromancer in the group (headed for Pale Master). I may not be getting Spirit Wall or Enervation or Avasculate or that endlessly amusing Magic Jar, but I don't really see that as being a huge loss when compared to what I can gain from keeping Evocation.

But then again, all that I know about playing wizards is from the discussions on the board and I don't really have a lot of experience in playing wizards effectively. With that, I'd really like to hear what you guys have to say.

Thanks in advance  :D
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Senevri

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 07:39:27 AM »
Evocation is actually good, if you look at the non-blasts. Soyeah. Can you drop Enchantment?

Necromancy is... Well, it could be droppable, but you lose Astral Projection and Enervation line.
Do keep in mind you can duplicate Evocation spells with Illusions later on, though.

JaronK

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 08:33:59 AM »
Most of the good evocations can just be duplicated with Shadow Evocation and similar spells, which is one reason it's so easy to drop.  As for Necromancy, there's some incredibly gems in there... Animate Dead, Plague of Undead, Awaken Undead, and Animate Dread Warrior are obviously nice, but there's also stuff like Shivering Touch, Black Sand, Enervation, Haunt Shift, Skull Watch and Ghoul Glyph.  Generally, losing Necromancy usually means losing disposable minion tanks that could be made quite tough, as well as a few very nasty direct attack spells unlike any found in other schools.  The big thing about Necromancy is the large number of spells that you cast today for benefits tomorrow (always nice) and attack spells that target unusual things (like Dex damage and level drain).

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 09:10:33 AM »
Sill, even with Shadow Evocation, the quasi-reality issue and reduced spell level per spell slots kinda hurts. Is it really worth it? Then again, Planar Binding a Skurid (aka: Shadow Squirrel) from the Plane of Shadow and casting Greater Planar Bubble on it allow for additional quasireality and free maximization to Shadow Evocations and Conjurations anyway.

I'm also really fond of Enchantment and loathe to give it up. Freezing Glare/Glance is just too awesome and can be persisted and shared with my familiar. Plus, awesome spells like Irressistable Dance and Maddening Screams are too awesome to give up.

I guess my real consideration here is whether or not there are spells from necromancy (which I don't already have) that I cannot benefit from unless cast by myself. As I see it, I've already learned everything that I need to cast myself. I already have Shivering Touch, Skull Watch, Shivering Touch, Specral Hand, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Mass Curse of Impending Blades, Vampiric Touch, Ray of Weakness, and False Life.

Everything else can be left to the dedicated Necromancer in the party. He can make a Clone of me and he can take me along when he Astral Projects. Also, as a Pale Master, his summoning abilities will always surpass mine anyway, so why not just leave it up to him?

Although, Sword of Darkness will be missed. No saving throw, negative levels per attack with iterative attacks is pretty awesome. And Enervation and other negative level imparting effects will also be a huge loss. I don't know. I'm still on the fence here.

In case I'd like to keep both, is there any other school that's droppable? Also, another query, since I have Spontaneous Divination and know all Divination spells the moment I have access to them anyway, can I actually drop Divination?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 09:58:22 AM by fun_at_funerals »
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Akalsaris

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 10:43:28 AM »
I don't think you can drop divination.  Anyhow, I'd drop necromancy, but first, if you can, grab any more spells that you might want and scribe those.  Command Undead is the one that comes to mind, your pale master can animate them and handle everything else but it's nice to have two pools of controlled undead rather than one.

As a sidenote, why the 5 levels of wizard later on instead of more incantatrix?

fun_at_funerals

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 11:23:18 AM »
DM restrictions on prestige class. Can only take 10 levels worth of prestige classes. The ban isn't retroactive and I am not prohibited from casting spells I already know. The Focused Studies prohibits a school only because it allows your to focus on the remaining, it's not like its an oath or anything.

On Divination, reread the text, you're right. Can't ban it. Damn.

Been thinking about it and I think that shadow mimicking evocation with the planar bubble trick becomes more efficient due to the free maximize. Plus, if I want a blast all day spell, there's always the option of persisting a Dragon's Breath spell. Also, negative levels seems to be a more effective means to taking enemies down than direct damage. Maximized Enervations and persisted Swords of Darkness might be more effective. Than the aforementioned GMotE+LR+CSB combo.  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:27:51 AM by fun_at_funerals »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 12:12:17 PM »
Greater Shadow Evocation works nicely for Contingency.

Usually, my two drop schools are Enchantment and Evocation.  If I have to pick a third, I have to mull over Illusion, Necromancy, and Abjuration.  I never drop Conjuration or Transmutation, and as you've already found out, you can't drop Divination.  So, regarding those other three:

Illusion: This is the one I'm least likely to drop.  It's useful, and you can mimic some non-blast Evocation spells with it.  If I do drop it, it's either for flavor reasons, or because we have a beguiler in the group or something.

Necromancy: As JaronK mentioned, there are some nice gems in here.  This is still the one I'm most likely to drop of these three.  Ultimately, it comes down to flavor when I make this decision.

Abjuration: Dispel Magic is a wonderful spell that I don't like to lose.  I'll consider dropping Abjuration if we have one or two other full casters in the group that can cast it.  Also, if I'm running a gish, I'll likely want to take Abjurant Champion, so I'll need this school in that case.



Long post short: I'd say drop Enchantment first, or Evocation if you really want some of the unique spell in Enchantment.
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snakeman830

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 12:28:12 PM »
Long post short: I'd say drop Enchantment first, or Evocation if you really want some of the unique spell in Enchantment.
Funny thing about Enchantment: one of its best spells (Monsterous Thrall) can be replicated by a Necromancy spell 2 levels lower.  You have to take the Mother Cyst feat, but Necrotic Tumor is absolutely amazing.
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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 01:55:17 PM »
Losing Enchantment would hurt way too much. I've always loved the school. Much of my experience as a Wizard came from playing an Enchanter. Irressistable Dance, Freezing Glance, Maddening Screams, Maddening Whispers, the Rebuke series, Wrathful Castigation, Geas, Mindfog, Ray of Stupidity (aka: the single shot animal slayer), lots of awesome spells there that can't be replicated by other schools.
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Senevri

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 02:35:05 PM »
Is it just me or does it always go like, "Necromancy is awesome, but you're going to be a grave-robbing, undead-creating tumor-ridden bad guy who's probably going to end up necropolitan eventually".
Flavor issues, teensy bit. :p

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 02:43:55 PM »
I actually would have gone Necropolitan if the DM allowed it. I guess I shouldn't have told him that I was planning to make myself Spell-Stiched as well. I dunno, ever since Looking For Group, I always imagined every wizard I played to be a tumor ridden, minion raising, thrall creating, natural order offending, town razing maniac.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 02:44:25 PM »
I had a similar conundrum a while ago.  I'm a little w/ Senevri.  Unless you're playing a really tough campaign, I'd mostly say go w/ your gut and the style of spellcasting you want.  All the choices floated so far -- abjuration, necromancy, evocation, etc. -- are reasonable ones.  You won't be shooting yourself in the foot, but you're surely going to lose some gems.  You seem to be quite into BC, so I say just pick one that gives you some nice options there, Evocation is a pretty solid choice, and then call it a day.  From an optimization standpoint you should certainly be doing well enough for any reasonable campaign.  

I'd say it might be more of an issue if (1) your DM expects you to be uber-cracked out and so will throw you through a meatgrinder, or (2) your fellow players are uber-cracked out.  Otherwise, I say go w/ flavor, any of these choices are fine.  

EDIT: 
I actually would have gone Necropolitan if the DM allowed it. I guess I shouldn't have told him that I was planning to make myself Spell-Stiched as well. I dunno, ever since Looking For Group, I always imagined every wizard I played to be a tumor ridden, minion raising, thrall creating, natural order offending, town razing maniac.

Well, then, I think you've got your answer.  You will miss necromancy.  Drop one of the other ones instead.  Given LFG (which my gf reads and I don't, so I only know the broad contours) I'd probably bounce Enchantment or Illusion. 

RobbyPants

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2010, 02:45:24 PM »
Enchantment has a lot of cool spells, but ultimately, they can all be summed up as "roll a Will save or be out of the fight".  Conjuration can do that too.  Sure, Enchantment can possibly get someone to fight on your side, and you do have that argument, but I find the school itself to be largely redundant.  That, and the entire school can be obliterated by a single spell.

Necromancy has Enervation, which has nothing to do with undead.  That spell metamagics very nicely.  Dropping tons of negative levels on monsters is nice.
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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2010, 02:57:43 PM »
Holy crap I could never give up Illusion... Mirror Image and Silent Image are enough by themselves to keep that entire school. Not to mention Invisibility, Project Image, etc...
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2010, 03:09:03 PM »
I had a similar conundrum a while ago.  I'm a little w/ Senevri.  Unless you're playing a really tough campaign, I'd mostly say go w/ your gut and the style of spellcasting you want.  All the choices floated so far -- abjuration, necromancy, evocation, etc. -- are reasonable ones.  You won't be shooting yourself in the foot, but you're surely going to lose some gems.  You seem to be quite into BC, so I say just pick one that gives you some nice options there, Evocation is a pretty solid choice, and then call it a day.  From an optimization standpoint you should certainly be doing well enough for any reasonable campaign. 

I'd say it might be more of an issue if (1) your DM expects you to be uber-cracked out and so will throw you through a meatgrinder, or (2) your fellow players are uber-cracked out.  Otherwise, I say go w/ flavor, any of these choices are fine. 

EDIT: 

Well, then, I think you've got your answer.  You will miss necromancy.  Drop one of the other ones instead.  Given LFG (which my gf reads and I don't, so I only know the broad contours) I'd probably bounce Enchantment or Illusion. 

You have a point. Dropping Evocation it is then. I highly doubt this campaign's going to turn into a meat grinder anyway.

Enchantment has a lot of cool spells, but ultimately, they can all be summed up as "roll a Will save or be out of the fight".  Conjuration can do that too.  Sure, Enchantment can possibly get someone to fight on your side, and you do have that argument, but I find the school itself to be largely redundant.  That, and the entire school can be obliterated by a single spell.

Necromancy has Enervation, which has nothing to do with undead.  That spell metamagics very nicely.  Dropping tons of negative levels on monsters is nice.

Still, it's highly unlikely that everything we encounter will have Mind Blank on them and I'm not nearly daft enough to waste an Enchantment on another spellcaster.  :D
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RobbyPants

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 03:51:35 PM »
Holy crap I could never give up Illusion... Mirror Image and Silent Image are enough by themselves to keep that entire school. Not to mention Invisibility, Project Image, etc...
And I do love Mirror Image.  Like I said, that's the least likely of the three for me to give up, and doing so would pretty much be for flavor reasons.


Still, it's highly unlikely that everything we encounter will have Mind Blank on them and I'm not nearly daft enough to waste an Enchantment on another spellcaster.  :D
I know most enemies won't have Mind Blank, and it won't even come into effect until 15th level.  The bigger point of my post was Enchantment = Will save-or-suck.

Take Conjuration for example.  You have:
- Will save-or-suck
- Fort save-or-suck
- Ref save-or-suck
- No save, just suck
- summons
- teleportation

Also, a lot of them ignore Spell Resistance.  Enchantment just seems largely redundant to me.
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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 04:17:29 PM »
Plus, there are a lot of ways that you can get enchantment effects without actually using enchantment. 

Like the incredibly underrated [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/IllusoryScript.htm]Illusory Script.[/url]

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Tonymitsu

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 05:54:29 PM »
My advice is take a look at the some of the "Useful Necromancy spells" threads, and see what spells seem useful to your build.

Then look for ways to accomplish the same effect with what you have access to, except without requiring a touch attack, or a Fort save, or a...



...pretty much what I'm saying is, nah you probably won't miss Necromancy.

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Re: Will I miss Necromancy?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 06:00:31 PM »
Holy crap I could never give up Illusion... Mirror Image and Silent Image are enough by themselves to keep that entire school. Not to mention Invisibility, Project Image, etc...
And I do love Mirror Image.  Like I said, that's the least likely of the three for me to give up, and doing so would pretty much be for flavor reasons.


Still, it's highly unlikely that everything we encounter will have Mind Blank on them and I'm not nearly daft enough to waste an Enchantment on another spellcaster.  :D
I know most enemies won't have Mind Blank, and it won't even come into effect until 15th level.  The bigger point of my post was Enchantment = Will save-or-suck.

Take Conjuration for example.  You have:
- Will save-or-suck
- Fort save-or-suck
- Ref save-or-suck
- No save, just suck
- summons
- teleportation

Also, a lot of them ignore Spell Resistance.  Enchantment just seems largely redundant to me.

The other problem with enchantment is that some of the best spells have a creature type restriction on them.


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