Author Topic: Total Invulnerability Build  (Read 17881 times)

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Tohron

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Total Invulnerability Build
« on: January 30, 2010, 01:58:41 PM »
Okay, so let's start with a level 30 wizard.  Already ultra-powerful, but this is mainly a thought experiment to test out certain defenses.  He has Leadership, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander, and with boosted Charisma from epic spells, has essentially unlimited followers.  He has levels in Incantatrix, War Weaver, and IotSV.  Now that his power knows few if any bounds, one of his main concerns is staying alive.  And he has a plan.

He constructs a spherical stone building with no entrances, an outer layer of stone, and a hollow interior, which is filled by a Gelatinous Cube.  He then sets up one of his primary defenses - he creates two teleportation circles, and places a bauble to be sent between them.  Since travel between the teleportation circles is instantaneous, the bauble is essentially in two places at once.  Then he creates a clone of himself.  Finally, with the help of an artificer follower, he creates a Contingency setup such that if the bauble is in Teleportation Circle 1, he is True Mind Switched into the inner layer of the building (temporarily turned into a creature) and his clone is sent to another plane to live in happiness well plotting more invulnerability methods, whereas if the bauble is in Teleportation Circle 2, the clone is True Mind Switched into the inner layer, and he is sent to the alternate plane.

Since the bauble's location is not clearly defined the status of both the wizard and his clone enter into a state of quantum uncertainty - sending an enormous "screw you" to divinations everywhere.  Any divination pertaining to the wizard or his clone will automatically fail, since their status is undefined.  Since this process works so well, the wizard does it to his cohort, and all his followers, True mind-switching them into grains of sand inside the Gelatinous Cube(to which the process is also done).

The wizard also transports Lyres of Building into the Gelatinous Cube, to be used by followers with telekinetic abilities.  Since the spherical structure is a building, the Lyres can make it permanently invulnerable.  Artificer followers make the outer layer into a magic item, so that it can resist abilities restricted to nonmagical objects.

The Wizard then throws up a double-layered permanent Epic Ward, which directly blocks the Afflict, Destroy, Dispel, and Transport seeds (treating them as 10th level spells).  Since the Ward is double-layered, each Ward protects the other from the Destroy and Dispel seeds.  The dispel DC for these wards is boosted so high that no non-epic spells can dispel it.

So the wizard (or wizard/clone) now is the inner layer of an invulnerable building, with the outer layer blocking line of effect.  He cannot be tracked by divinations, nor can he be specifically targeted, thanks the fundamental uncertainty of his status, and the same goes for his followers.  The interior cannot be entered, because all space is occupied.  To fight, he imbues the exterior with magical properties, or simply bludgeons opponents to death by falling on them.

So, is there any way to pierce his defenses?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 02:00:29 PM by Tohron »

Bauglir

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 09:10:47 PM »
You can't apply real-world physics to D&D. Seriously, think of the catgirls. He's in each place for an infinitely small, yet defined, period of time. Divinations and suchlike can still target him just fine, they just move their target with him.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

jojolagger

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 10:21:40 PM »
Okay, so let's start with a level 30 wizard.  Already ultra-powerful, but this is mainly a thought experiment to test out certain defenses.  He has Leadership, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander, and with boosted Charisma from epic spells, has essentially unlimited followers.  He has levels in Incantatrix, War Weaver, and IotSV.  Now that his power knows few if any bounds, one of his main concerns is staying alive.  And he has a plan.
The way epic spells work just have them all boost your ritual spell to permanently dominate everyone on your current plane, with the save DC jacked up to a couple billion.
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Tohron

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 01:40:07 AM »
You can't apply real-world physics to D&D. Seriously, think of the catgirls. He's in each place for an infinitely small, yet defined, period of time. Divinations and suchlike can still target him just fine, they just move their target with him.

This isn't real world physics, this is just an exploitation of the fact that the rules allow for an object to essentially be in two places at once, and an object in such a state exists outside D&D's targeting rules, thus divinations and all targeted effects fail, because the wizard & clone are both in a non-targetable state.

Quote
The way epic spells work just have them all boost your ritual spell to permanently dominate everyone on your current plane, with the save DC jacked up to a couple billion.

That won't work on the mind-effecting immune creatures or anything outside your plane.  Since this is a total invulnerability build, you need to go the extra mile  :)

veekie

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 01:54:43 AM »
They could just target both places at once with an epic spell.
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Senevri

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 06:26:13 AM »
The clone doesn't activate 'til the Wizzard dies. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm.
Simulacrum might work, though.
Teleportation Circle only works with Creatures, thus not activating with the bauble (although making it a creature via, say, animated object, is no problem.) I'm not sure if it works if you sit or lie on it, either. I guess it works as an instant infinite loop, RAW, though.
True Mind Switch has an XP cost of 10000, but presumably you could craft an infinite use item, if you're epic enough.
You do not have a line of effect and you're not within short range of the Gelatinous Cube, either. So no True Mind Switch.
Destroying either of the Teleportation Circle stops this.
I don't see how this stops divinations, either - Divinations resolve on some random point, giving one of the locations.

Similarily, either the gelatinous cube or the Simulacrum dying just means there's a 50% chance of the wizard dying.

Now, just being inside the spherical building equipped with 48 lyres of building will protect you quite a bit, especially if you ward it against magic. Moving this build is a bit tricky, as the lyre doesn't work on animated objects.
However, it only protects it against ATTACKS, meaning dropping it into lava, for an example, works fine.
Of course, the one inside is also blocking line of effect from themselves, but there's ways around that.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 08:13:20 AM »
1) Contingency doesn't work like that
2) Teleportation circle does not work like that
3) Things that target you do not work like that
4) Contact other plane still works just fine
5) Knowledge affiliation still kicks your ass
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Tohron

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 01:12:12 PM »
Quote
They could just target both places at once with an epic spell.

They would have to know about the location on the alternate plane, which would require divinations regarding the wizard/clone, which wouldn't work.
Although now that I think about it, I'll probably have to do some variation of this process on the building as well, otherwise it could be used as a target of divinations to find the plane(s).  Either that, or I'll need to have the plane(s) created using a variant of this process.

1) Contingency doesn't work like that
2) Teleportation circle does not work like that
3) Things that target you do not work like that
4) Contact other plane still works just fine
5) Knowledge affiliation still kicks your ass


Let me have a look...

Quote
You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot

So it looks like the wizard will need to use a creature rather than a bauble, but other than that, there seems to be nothing wrong with making two teleportation circles with each other as destinations.

For the Contingency, he'd probably be using Craft Contingent Spell, which is from a book I don't have, so admittedly, I don't have direct access to how it works.  But my conditions seem fairly clear:  If Creature X is in Circle 1, True Mind Switch Person A to Polymorphed Object N and Teleport Person B to Location M, and (using another contingency) if Creature X is in Circle 2, True Mind Switch Person B to Polymorphed Object N and Teleport Person A to Location M.  This process passes on the undefined state of the creature in the Teleportation Circle loop to the wizard and his clone.  Is there anything else I'm not taking into account?

I'll admit, this build is not fully refined, I have yet to add anti-time travel defenses, for example (I was thinking of using something similar to Monty with the above trick used in the 'Mini-Monty' equivalent's creation).  I would appreciate suggestions on how to improve this build.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 01:21:28 PM by Tohron »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 01:30:39 PM »
You are never in two places at once. That is an unsubstantiated extrapolation. I think that pretty much kills most of the other nonsense you're claiming.
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veekie

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 01:42:45 PM »
Besides, if you ARE in two places at once, it should actually stand to reason that targeting either place would hit you just fine.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 03:39:44 PM »
Oh,and contingency is spent when it activates. This applies to craft contingent spell, too
Yeah... otherwise I'd always have Contingency which casts Celerity when I cast Celerity, and another that casts Celerity when my Contingent Celerity goes off. :P

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 04:46:44 PM »
Do creatures move outside of their turn?

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Tohron

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 07:14:30 PM »
Let me explain my reasoning.

So first, you've got the creature, which is being continuously teleported between two teleportation circles.  Since teleportation is instantaneous, that means that it can spend no more that 0 seconds at any teleportation circle - in other words, no seconds.  Thus, it still exists, but it spends no time at either teleportation circle.  Inquiries (such as Divinations) regarding its location will fail, because it does not have a defined location.

Now, all my contingency setup does is transpose this state onto the entire status of two beings: a wizard, and his clone (by which I mean any near-identical body double).  One of them is mind-switched into an object, the other is sent to a different plane, and who is sent where depends on the status of the creature in the telportation circles.  Since the creature's status is undefined, the location of both the wizard and their clone is also undefined.  This does not mean that the undefined entity in the building is immune to AoE spells that ignore line of effect, but it does mean that an attempt to target them specifically will fail, because targeting them would require that they have a defined location, and they don't.

Admittedly, this depends on one key rules interpretation.  Assume that a contingent Time Stop is triggered while the teleportation circle loop is running.  If this method is to work, then the creature would have to exist, to an extent, in both locations.  If it is instead frozen in one location, the method fails, and you simply roll a d2 to determine who goes where when the dual Contingencies go off.  Although the latter interpretation is obviously to be preferred in actual games, I don't see the rules favoring either one.

Even if my interpretation is used, there still are problems - The Mad Linguist mentioned Knowledge Affiliation, which would not be countered by this method.  So I have a question - does Knowledge Affiliation work on all sentient beings, or are there restrictions on which though-capable entities it works on.

Also, people seem to be reacting rather harshly to my posts - I don't want to be rude, so if I'm inadvertently offending anyone, I'd like to know.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 07:21:13 PM »
Sorry if we seem rude. It just seems that you're relying way too much on extrapolation to me, instead of hard rules. Nothing in the rules indicates anywhere that you ever actually exist in two places at once. And even if you did, nothing indicates that that would foil divination and the like. You're entire idea for "invincibility" relies on conjecture and extrapolation. It's a house of cards.
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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veekie

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 09:38:00 PM »
Quote
Also, people seem to be reacting rather harshly to my posts - I don't want to be rude, so if I'm inadvertently offending anyone, I'd like to know.
Catgirls be dying here!
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Bauglir

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 10:04:09 PM »
Well, typically my rudeness scales proportionally with the magnitude of a claim and inversely with how often I've heard of someone before, which makes it come off pretty high here. Sorry bout that, it's just claiming total invulnerability (rather than saying, "Does X work for total invulnerability?") seems a bit over-confident.

Quote
So first, you've got the creature, which is being continuously teleported between two teleportation circles.  Since teleportation is instantaneous, that means that it can spend no more that 0 seconds at any teleportation circle - in other words, no seconds.  Thus, it still exists, but it spends no time at either teleportation circle.  Inquiries (such as Divinations) regarding its location will fail, because it does not have a defined location.

Here's the thing, though, instantaneous divinations function over the same 0 seconds as your teleportation. They can snapshot your wizard in whichever position he's in. There's no reason they can't. He HAS a defined location, that's where you're making a logic leap. It's just changing between two places infinitely quickly. That's no problem for instantaneous divinations. Besides, Commune, for instance, allows a short answer; "Teleporting from X to Y" is a perfectly valid reply.

In the Time Stop example, the rules would support the one where the wizard is in only one place. There's no reason to believe the wizard exists in both places at once. By the rules, he's just moving from place to place arbitrarily quickly, teleported from circle to circle instantaneously. That's all.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

snakeman830

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2010, 10:37:39 PM »
Truthfully, the only thing I've seen to truly make yourself invincible in D&D means either Pun-Pun or simply not existing in the first place.
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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 11:47:05 PM »
The wizard also transports Lyres of Building into the Gelatinous Cube, to be used by followers with telekinetic abilities.  Since the spherical structure is a building, the Lyres can make it permanently invulnerable.  Artificer followers make the outer layer into a magic item, so that it can resist abilities restricted to nonmagical objects.
So, is there any way to pierce his defenses?
I wait for the gelatinous cubes acid to destroy the lyre's. Then I send in 20 orbital drop ninjas to do ~1,108,800,180 damage. Have a nice day.
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In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
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Tohron

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Re: Total Invulnerability Build
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 11:17:50 PM »
Sorry bout that, it's just claiming total invulnerability (rather than saying, "Does X work for total invulnerability?") seems a bit over-confident.

It just seemed that if the subject is an attempt at total invulnerability, calling it a total invulnerability build was the logical thing to do.  Anyway, here some degree of backing for my interpretation, for what it's worth:

Quote from: SRD
You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot.

Thus, if a creature stands in a teleportation circle, they must afterward be in the destination of the teleportation circle.  Since the destination of each teleportation circle is another teleportation circle, the creature must be in both circles, otherwise one of the circles will have failed to teleport the creature to its destination, since said creature would not be at its destination the instant after it was teleported.

Still stretching the rules, but then, this is You Break It, You Buy It.