Has anyone considered starting up a metamagic handbook?

[McPoyo]

Mostly enchantment stuff, I would wager, assuming you don't have access to a higher level spell to do it. One of the dominates, perhaps?

I'm just putting theoreticals out there, I've personally never used it in core-only.

[Kuroimaken]

Well, going by what one of my DMs would have you believe, you could use it to simultaneously raise the DC on a spell that's already metamagic'd, like an empowered Fireball. Of course, even he knows now that use is bogus.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I dunno, you're fighting a ghost in a lesser globe of invulnerability, so you need to hit him with magic missiles?

[Kuroimaken]

I dunno, you're fighting a ghost in a lesser globe of invulnerability, so you need to hit him with magic missiles?

By the time something like that becomes an issue, you probably have access to ghost touch weapons, temporarily or not, so why bother?

[telehax]

Well, going by what one of my DMs would have you believe, you could use it to simultaneously raise the DC on a spell that's already metamagic'd, like an empowered Fireball. Of course, even he knows now that use is bogus.

I'm still pretty convinced that the wording of Heighten Spell is so badly worded that that's what it actually does, actually.
Mostly cause of the first part:

Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Which, while it could mean "take the spell and raise it by X levels", in proper English use would mean "any heightened spell will have a spell level higher than normal", a statement of fact rather than what to do with something.

[PhaedrusXY]

Well, going by what one of my DMs would have you believe, you could use it to simultaneously raise the DC on a spell that's already metamagic'd, like an empowered Fireball. Of course, even he knows now that use is bogus.

I actually used to argue that too, and used it as a houserule for a while. I think it actually is a decent one... otherwise, as already noted Heighten is a piece of crap that no one would ever use (unless it is to cheese something non-core, or because they're not very good at optimizing...).

[bearsarebrown]

Well, going by what one of my DMs would have you believe, you could use it to simultaneously raise the DC on a spell that's already metamagic'd, like an empowered Fireball. Of course, even he knows now that use is bogus.

I actually used to argue that too, and used it as a houserule for a while. I think it actually is a decent one... otherwise, as already noted Heighten is a piece of crap that no one would ever use (unless it is to cheese something non-core, or because they're not very good at optimizing...).

I actually didn't know this was even a rule until recently and have finished encounters because of it.

[Daedalus]

Posted @ Giant in the playground:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153510

Posted by dextercorvia
Sanctum/Invisible/Repeat Mage's Lucubration with Arcane Thesis. Now for use with sixth fifth level spells. (Thank you sanctum.) Yes that's right. Repeat the Mage's Lucubration for free with Arcane Thesis, and next round, you can designate the Lucubration itself for recovery (once again thanks to sanctum).

Wash, rinse and repeat. Enjoy.

Mathcheck: Sanctum (cast outside it = -1), Invisible: +0, Repeat: +3, Arcane Thesis: -3 = -1 total spell level.

=> If you prepared this Repeated Invisible Sanctum Mage's Lucubration in a 6th level slot and cast it you could get 2 fifth or lower spells back that you cast the last 24 hours.  The metamagic'ed spell itself is lvl 5, you select that as a target and another one you cast...

Sounds pretty awesome no?

[McPoyo]

Posted @ Giant in the playground:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153510

Posted by dextercorvia
Sanctum/Invisible/Repeat Mage's Lucubration with Arcane Thesis. Now for use with sixth fifth level spells. (Thank you sanctum.) Yes that's right. Repeat the Mage's Lucubration for free with Arcane Thesis, and next round, you can designate the Lucubration itself for recovery (once again thanks to sanctum).

Wash, rinse and repeat. Enjoy.

Mathcheck: Sanctum (cast outside it = -1), Invisible: +0, Repeat: +3, Arcane Thesis: -3 = -1 total spell level.

=> If you prepared this Repeated Invisible Sanctum Mage's Lucubration in a 6th level slot and cast it you could get 2 fifth or lower spells back that you cast the last 24 hours.  The metamagic'ed spell itself is lvl 5, you select that as a target and another one you cast...

Sounds pretty awesome no?

It's also wrong. Arcane thesis reduces the cost of each MM by 1, to a minimum or 0, per the errata.

[snakeman830]

The total metamagic cost (which is what the eratta addresses) is reduced to 0.  Sanctum Spell reduces the effective spell level by 1.

[Solo]

Which allows for recursive castings of Arcane Fusion galore!

[McPoyo]

The total metamagic cost (which is what the eratta addresses) is reduced to 0.  Sanctum Spell reduces the effective spell level by 1.

Still disagree, there. Adding that errata into the original feat wording, the total level of the spell would be +0 (-1 from arcane thesis applying to repeat, reducing it to +2, and -1 from Sanctum spell being modified by thesis, then another -1 from sanctum itself).

[snakeman830]

Did you forget Invisible Spell?  That's the final -1 needed.

Remember, Sanctum Spell's special reduction doesn't change the slot, but the spell level (which is what Mage's Lubrication cares about).

[McPoyo]

Did you forget Invisible Spell?  That's the final -1 needed.

Remember, Sanctum Spell's special reduction doesn't change the slot, but the spell level (which is what Mage's Lubrication cares about).

No, I remembered it, I just don't see how the language of arcane thesis has ever supported reducing a multi-point adjustment through application of +0 mod mm feats.

[DavidWL]

A post I made a year ago ... http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4481.0

Best,
David

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Did you forget Invisible Spell?  That's the final -1 needed.

Remember, Sanctum Spell's special reduction doesn't change the slot, but the spell level (which is what Mage's Lubrication cares about).

No, I remembered it, I just don't see how the language of arcane thesis has ever supported reducing a multi-point adjustment through application of +0 mod mm feats.

The slot ends up being +0, but since it's a sanctum spell it's treated as level-1

[Saxony]

I might have missed it, but I'm told the Metaphysical Spellshaper (BoEF) is amazing at this. Something about using Ability Damage to pay for Metamagic, but I'm yet to read it.

This. MPSS is the class I use when I want to break a game.

Combined with a level 1 dip into Binder to bind Naberius and heal the ability score damage in each afflicted ability 1 point/per round and it becomes completely and utterly broken.

Think of MPSS1/Binder1 as a two level long prestige class which loses a caster level but permanently applies every metamagic feat one has to every spell one casts for no cost. Taking more levels in MPSS grants another metamagic feat and Improved Metamagic (Epic feat) as a class ability.

Special mention: MPSS's can metamagic a spell up to a spell slot higher than they can normally cast, meaning they can actually apply tons of metamagic feats when they get them at level 6. Say you're a Wizard5/MPSS1. Want to cast a Twinned Fireball (or whatever) as a 7th level spell? No problem. (This is the example given in the book).

Second special mention: MPSS's work with both arcane and divine casters.

[Widow]

Like the other sanctium spell examples, I asked in the questions thread if you could cast a miracle to copy a level 9 cleric spell with sanctium spell attached since that spell would count as a level 8 spell.  Any takers.

On the Arcane thesis PHBII errata vs. the FAQ, where does the statement come from that errata superceeds the FAQ (that makes sense to me, but did not know where that ruling came from).  The newer date on the FAQ file could cause problems for some since it is technicly the most recent ruling.  I really wise wizards would stop deleting previous rulings from the FAQ when ever they make a contradictory ruling so I at least know I am not crazy (not for arcane thesis, but other things they like to change from time to time).

I might have missed it, but I'm told the Metaphysical Spellshaper (BoEF) is amazing at this. Something about using Ability Damage to pay for Metamagic, but I'm yet to read it.

This. MPSS is the class I use when I want to break a game.

Combined with a level 1 dip into Binder to bind Naberius and heal the ability score damage in each afflicted ability 1 point/per round and it becomes completely and utterly broken.

Think of MPSS1/Binder1 as a two level long prestige class which loses a caster level but permanently applies every metamagic feat one has to every spell one casts for no cost. Taking more levels in MPSS grants another metamagic feat and Improved Metamagic (Epic feat) as a class ability.

Special mention: MPSS's can metamagic a spell up to a spell slot higher than they can normally cast, meaning they can actually apply tons of metamagic feats when they get them at level 6. Say you're a Wizard5/MPSS1. Want to cast a Twinned Fireball (or whatever) as a 7th level spell? No problem. (This is the example given in the book)
Second special mention: MPSS's work with both arcane and divine casters.

Yeah that class is very wrong.  I liked to use the Blood casting feat in the Book of Ultimate feats with that class.  Blood casting lets you take Con damage to cast a spell without using up a spell slot.  Add in spell chain from the same book, and you can cast more than one spell a round.  Tack on the heal spell to the end of any spell chain to recover all ability damage.

Mostly enchantment stuff, I would wager, assuming you don't have access to a higher level spell to do it. One of the dominates, perhaps?

I'm just putting theoreticals out there, I've personally never used it in core-only.

A player in my group would heighten a ray of frost to level 9 to just burn out the enemy's spell turning spell in case he had one up.  Of course if you are always using the same spell, a spellblade weapon enhancement will work better.

[McPoyo]

The FAQ is not an official source, it is intended as a guideline for DMs, and in the introduction refers you back to the sourcebooks. The Errata, on the other hand, is updated changes to the books rulings, and is adjusted during the next print run (which almost never happens).

[Widow]

Also I forgot to mention supernatural spells as someone commented on previously.  Widen Supernatural ability would work well in conjunction with the dweomerkeeper, plus it increases the size by 100 percent instead of 50%.  Now add in node spellcasting and metanode feats to allow you to use a node to reduce the metamagic adjustment to a spell.  A 100% widened node genesis spell will create a level 2 node right at the start and xp free since it will be a supernatural spell from the dweomerkeeper.  Kind of feat intensive, but another way to lower your overall metamagic adjustment.